Welcome to episode 31 of Offshoot. My guest today is Jeff Pensiero, founder of Baldface Lodge, a legendary backcountry snowcat skiing operation in British Columbia’s Selkirk Range. These 36,000 acres of pristine terrain, which many consider the pinnacle of snowboarding lodges, offers a relatively small audience of riders some of the best backcountry riding in North America.
Jeff’s journey 26 year long journey with the lodge started as an itch to work for himself. The setting became Nelson, BC when he fell in love with Paula, his wife, and the seedlings of the vision popped. From and all-in bet with $40,000 borrowed off of a stated-income mortgage, to amazing connections with snowboarding legend Craig Kelly and even the Foo Fighters, Jeff bootstrapped Baldface from a canvas dome and single snowcat into a world-class operation with 3,000 people on the waiting list. Jeff’s high standards and strong vision Jeff have helped weathered countless challenges. His reinvest of every dollar back into the business, which led 17 year with little to no personal income, has created a place that is suddenly almost unobtainable with waits to ride lasting 8 years or longer.
What makes this conversation particularly compelling is Jeff’s transparency about the realities of entrepreneurial commitment. He’s never accepted failure and he’s found trusted mentors who have helped cut the path.
Listen in as we cover topics that include:
How following intuition and signs led Jeff from his music major to securing British Columbia’s first commercial tenure in in over a decade.
How Jeff went completely boots-on-the-ground—from attending public hearings and scouting terrain on snowmobiles to buying donuts for Canadian bureaucrats—to navigate the complex tenure application process.
The magnitude of his boot-strap commitment three personal mortgages on stated income, then a myriad of small investments to just get the machine started.
The nuanced difficulty of eventually buying out the lodge’s capital partners to achieve operational scale and control, including navigating majority ownership transitions.
Why Jeff’s hiring philosophy centers on ending relationships well—discussing departure plans during the hire, with the commitment that “the day you leave will be a great day.”
How his management approach shifted from thinking of himself as the boss to viewing his employees as the boss, prioritizing their financial security, operational needs, and even their retirement.
How “I was oblivious to what I got into and I was never giving up” is the mark of entrepreneurial superpower.
Why authentic love—both for Paula and for the experience Baldface creates—became the foundation for surviving decades of financial uncertainty and operational challenges.
This conversation offers a masterclass in entrepreneurial persistence, relationship-driven business building, and the power of never quitting when you’re driven by something deeper than money. I hope you enjoy it.
Transcript
[00:01] Jeff Pensiero: Think of it like I tied a cinder block around my neck,
[00:06] jumped in off a two story pier and on the way into the water said, I think this is a great time to learn how to swim.
[00:13] So I spent 20 years bouncing off the bottom and getting just high enough to get a sip of air and then going back down.
[00:21] And over the course of time I’ve learned I didn’t need to swim, I needed to learn how to untie knots underwater.
[01:19] Kevin Choquette: Welcome everyone to episode 31 of Offshoot. My guest today is Jeff Pensiero, founder of Bald Face Lodge, a legendary backcountry snowcat skiing operation in British Columbia’s selkirk range.
[01:31] These 36,000 acres of pristine terrain, which many consider the pinnacle of the snowboarding lodges,
[01:37] offers a relatively small audience of riders, some of the best backcountry riding in North America.
[01:42] Jeff’s journey, 26 years long, starts with an itch to work for himself.
[01:48] The setting became Nelson BC when he fell in love with Paula, his wife,
[01:52] and the seedlings of the vision popped from an all in bet with $40,000 borrowed off of a stated income mortgage to amazing connections with snowboarding legend Craig Kelly and even the Foo Fighters.
[02:04] Jeff Bootstrapped bald face from a canvas dome and a single snowcat into a world class operation with 3,000 people on the waiting list.
[02:13] Jeff Jeff’s high standards and strong vision helped them weather countless challenges.
[02:19] His reinvestment of every dollar back into the business, which led to 17 years with little to no personal income, has created a place that’s suddenly almost unattainable with weights to ride lasting eight years or longer.
[02:32] What makes this conversation particularly compelling is Jeff’s transparency about the realities of entrepreneurial commitment.
[02:39] He’s never accepted failure and he’s found trusted mentors who have helped cut the path.
[02:44] Listen in as we cover topics that include how following your intuition and signs led Jeff from his music major to securing British Columbia’s first commercial tenure in over a decade.
[02:57] How Jeff went completely boots on the ground from attending public hearings and scouting terrain on snowmobiles to buying donuts for Canadian bureaucrats to navigate the complex 10 year application process.
[03:09] The magnitude of his bootstrap commitment with three personal mortgage on stated income,
[03:14] then a myriad of small investments to just get the machine started.
[03:18] The nuanced difficulty of eventually buying out the largest capital partners to achieve operational scale and control,
[03:25] including navigating majority ownership transactions why Jeff’s Hiring Philosophy Centers on ending Relationships well,
[03:33] discussing a departure plan on the day that they’re hired,
[03:37] Jeff makes a commitment to the day that you leave will be a great day.
[03:42] How his management approach shifted from thinking of himself as the boss to viewing his employees as the boss,
[03:48] prioritizing their financial security, operational needs, and even retirement needs.
[03:53] How I was oblivious to what I got into and I was never give up is a mark of entrepreneurial superpower. Why authentic love both for Paula and the experience Bald Face creates became the foundation for surviving decades of financial uncertainty and operational challenges.
[04:11] This conversation offers a masterclass in entrepreneurial persistence, relationship driven business building, and the power of never quitting when you’re driven by something deeper than money. I really hope you enjoy it.
[04:29] Jeff. Good morning. Thank you for taking the time to join me on the podcast. I appreciate it.
[04:33] Jeff Pensiero: I’m excited to have a conversation. Thanks for having me.
[04:36] Kevin Choquette: Yeah, my pleasure.
[04:38] And thanks. I really appreciate it.
[04:40] So look, Bald Face up in Nelson, British Columbia.
[04:44] I know what it is because I’ve had the privilege of going there and enjoying your hospitality. But for the listeners, maybe start by telling us about Bald Face and what is it you guys do.
[04:56] Jeff Pensiero: Bald Face is a lodge here in British Columbia. It’s in the backcountry near Nelson, B.C. in the Selkirk Range. We take snowboarders and skiers for three and four day snowcat skiing adventures or snowboarding adventures.
[05:11] You stay in this beautiful timber frame lodge and seven timber frame chalets.
[05:16] We cook you up the best bacon you’ve ever had and everything that comes along with that. Take you out for about eight hours a day,
[05:23] get you to the goods and then you come back and have a great time in the evening.
[05:27] Kind of like summer camp, but winter camp and instead of being kids, we’re all adults up there.
[05:33] Kevin Choquette: Yeah, it’s beautiful. And how does one get into this business? I mean in the real estate sense you’re a hospitality business, but you have to be the most boutique and most sort of esoteric version of a hospitality business where you have all of the infrastructure.
[05:49] But I don’t know what is your whole season? 16 weeks of hosting guests? Something like that.
[05:54] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah. 14 weeks. Really?
[05:55] Kevin Choquette: 14 weeks. Yeah.
[05:56] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah.
[05:56] Kevin Choquette: So how does that all come together?
[05:59] Jeff Pensiero: Uh, well,
[06:00] how does it all come together?
[06:03] That’s this. This will probably take two hours to get through this. But I’ll try to, I’ll try to streamline it. I mean, I. I had a real passion for snowboarding through college.
[06:13] I went to Colorado State and started snowboarding quite early in the snowboarding life.
[06:19] Kevin Choquette: That’s Fort Collins, Colorado State, Fort Collins.
[06:21] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah. I was at Fort Collins and we used to drive to the Front Range and, and had some snowboards and we would hike and do like road laps because the ski resorts didn’t let us go there.
[06:33] Kevin Choquette: Oh, yes. Back when snowboards were illegal.
[06:37] Jeff Pensiero: Right, right.
[06:40] And,
[06:41] you know, it’s a really fun feeling. And I grew up with a skateboard in my hand a lot of the time, so I skied as well.
[06:48] Have skied since I was, you know, three years old. And so started getting into it was a music major in college. Ended up transferring to Sierra Nevada College in Incline Vill.
[06:58] They had a ski business management program,
[07:00] kind of an interesting,
[07:02] really specific version of a hotel restaurant, resort management degree.
[07:07] And started working for K2.
[07:11] And working for K2, they started making snowboards. So I was the wax kind of tech nerd guy for all the pro races and collegiate races,
[07:21] and then I do the snowboarding stuff on the side.
[07:24] And as snowboarding started growing and getting crazier and crazier,
[07:28] I helped get the snowboards from the ski shops into the skateboard and the surf shops in California and up the coast.
[07:36] And man, that was a fun job and a really fun time to be a part of snowboarding and met some lifelong friends that I still come out to the lodge now.
[07:46] So I was doing that.
[07:48] As snowboarding got bigger and bigger, I realized a commission based sub sales rep job kind of had its downfalls.
[07:58] And I left and I started working for a much smaller company that was super cool because I got to help grow that company by bringing on a Japanese distributor,
[08:08] a South American distributor, working with reps all over the United States, Canada.
[08:14] And I ran a sales force there. That company was called Glissade Snowboards out of Chico, California, and then a small clothing company called Soup Kitchen out of Ashland, Oregon.
[08:24] And it was really cool to work with those founders and help create,
[08:29] you know,
[08:30] like a,
[08:31] a pathway for them to be able to sell their, their products, you know, through a rep and a distributor system. It was really cool. I learned so much.
[08:39] But again, the same thing kind of happened where it was like the better the company was going, the Less they really wanted to pay me. You know, like,
[08:46] you have the best year ever. And they’re like, let’s talk about this commission we’re paying you.
[08:49] Kevin Choquette: You know, you’re making too much.
[08:51] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah. And I get it. And so at 27, I was like, you know,
[08:56] I think maybe I want to start my own company. Because I know if I blow it,
[09:02] I can do this sales rep thing. And I love it. And I really enjoy driving around, you know, the west coast.
[09:08] I knew that was there for me.
[09:11] And so I was like, I’m going to start my own business. And I really put a pause on my life.
[09:16] I was in love with this girl down in Tahoe and we were really tight and she left and we broke up and she went to India to go study yoga and just kind of do the India thing.
[09:29] And I found myself with some time. So I became guy with truck in Lake Tahoe, took out an ad in the back of the newspaper,
[09:36] would drive around fixing people’s gutters and buying them groceries and putting their water ski boats in the water and just being a good guy.
[09:43] And met a lot of really amazing entrepreneurs who had like lakefronts in Lake Tahoe and got some really great mentors in that process. And then long, you know, I’m trying not to give you the super long.
[09:56] Kevin Choquette: Story, but we got time. Take your time.
[09:58] Jeff Pensiero: Ended up saying, you know,
[10:02] I gotta do this heli ski thing one time in my life, you know, before I blow it. And I called like a bunch of heli companies up in bc.
[10:11] Cause a friend of mine was a photographer and had done this trip up in Revelstoke and was raving about how amazing it was. And I had always fantasized about it,
[10:19] but it was like four or five thousand dollars to go to one of those places. So I called them all and I’m like, hey, I’m mobile.
[10:26] Anybody breaks their ankle or can’t ride or something comes up and you got a last minute deal, I’m your guy. Like, please give me a call. I really want to experience this.
[10:34] And sure enough, I got a call from one and I think it was seventeen hundred dollars. And I drove up, you know, and I went and it was like it was going to be the greatest thing I’ve ever done.
[10:46] And I got there and it really wasn’t that rad, you know, it was like kind of a bigger dude with a bigger attitude was the guide and he was kind of running the place and he was kind of a, you know, for lack of a better term, kind of a big ****,
[11:02] you know,
[11:03] and it was all skiers. And they were like, making fun of me the whole time,
[11:07] cracking dumb snowboarder jokes and kind of like you had to go, like, right next to the guy’s track right next to you. Their perfect ethic was like 11 perfect tracks matching each other.
[11:20] Like,
[11:21] synchronized skiing down open.
[11:23] I was like,
[11:24] nah. And I’d, like, cut over and find a little cliff and jump off it or try to air a little wind lip. And then they’d yell at me down at the bottom and.
[11:34] And they didn’t really explain that, you know, there were definitely safety concerns. And I wasn’t really aware of a lot then that I am now, but I was definitely a bit of a rebel and was like, ah,
[11:46] I didn’t come up here to just match a bunch of skiers lines down flat train. Like, we would fly up to these sweet mountains and then land in the, like,
[11:54] wimpiest place and, like, take the sissiest line down. And I was like, what?
[11:59] I want to go up there, you know. So,
[12:02] long story short, I.
[12:04] I ended up that that girl’s dad was on that trip through a wonderful turn of events. And we talked and he’s like, you know,
[12:12] Paula’s back in this little town in the interior. Nelson, she took a job as the newspaper editor there. And you guys were so good together. You should go over and say hi, blah, blah, blah.
[12:21] And so I ended up through talking with a good friend, making a turn, and drove over to Nelson to see Paula. And the second I saw this gal, I was like, oh, my God.
[12:30] She’.
[12:31] Wow, you know,
[12:33] that’s awesome. So we kind of reconnected and I drove back down to Tahoe. And all of a sudden I had these ideas starting to go in my head.
[12:40] Oh, British Columbia is pretty nice. And that town, Nelson’s awesome and Paul is there, and fat ski guides don’t know what we want to do.
[12:50] I’m end up with Chuck, and I’m drinking a beer and having a pizza at my friend’s pizza place in Tahoe. And I kind of relate it all to him. And he looks at me and he’s like, yeah, you know that heli skiing is one thing, but have you ever been.
[13:01] You’ve been cat skiing. And I’m like, nah, I heard it’s kind of dumb. I don’t know. And he’s like, man, I’ve been trying to get into this place, Selkirk Wilderness skiing, for, like,
[13:09] five years. It’s just sold out. Every year you go, you know, that Nelson area,
[13:15] it snows so much that there’s no heli skiing because they can’t fly. It’s just pow all the time. It’s called the, it’s the powder triangle. And he explains it to me.
[13:24] I’m like, wow.
[13:26] Thinking, thinking, thinking.
[13:27] So one thing kind of leads to another and I’m like, **** it, I’m going to drive up. I’m going to drive up to Nelson and go see Paula and like,
[13:34] see how, like, how hard is it to start a heli operation or a touring operation or a cat up? Like, what? I got a ski business degree. Like,
[13:42] my mindset was like, why not?
[13:44] Why not try this? You know, why not me?
[13:47] You know, I love it.
[13:49] And so up to Nelson I went and you know, Cupid shot his arrow into me and Paula and we really reconnected. And Fraps, the guy with the pizza place, he, he really understood F and B.
[14:01] And, and Fraps was just a bulldog of a human being and started putting one foot in front of the other. Had the pretty girl in town who was a, a reporter and, and she would go in and talk to the government officials and they were more than happy to talk to her about the state of backcountry skiing and commercial 10 years in British Columbia.
[14:19] Me and Fraps were kind of working like trying to figure out what the 10 year application process. One, no one had applied for a new operating permit for like a decade.
[14:31] When we showed up, there was actually a moratorium on it. So we showed up at a really bad time, but we started knocking on doors and making relationships and man, when I look back on it, it was just like we were the right guys in the right place at the wrong time,
[14:45] but we were not gonna, we were not gonna quit, you know, and.
[14:48] Kevin Choquette: The tenure I’ve had explained to me last time I was up there, but maybe explain that for. I know, it’s just different Canadian kind of language.
[14:56] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah. So tenure just means you have. It’s. It’s actually not a tenure and it’s not 10 year. It’s 10 T E N U R E. And what it is is a license of occupation on a large piece of land that allows us to be the exclusive recreation people in that area.
[15:13] Kevin Choquette: And is that similar to the ski resorts in the States with the national forest?
[15:18] Jeff Pensiero: Similar. Okay, similar. Except in British Columbia, like the crown owns all the land that would be BLM or Forest Service or park lands. All of it is called crown land up here.
[15:30] Kevin Choquette: Okay.
[15:31] Jeff Pensiero: So if it’s not what we call fee simple, privately Held real estate where you can, you know, build things on just like a regular house.
[15:38] It’s crown land.
[15:40] So everything outside of, of fee simple land is crown land. And you need to get a license to operate. And that’s logging companies,
[15:47] mining companies, commercial backcountry. Anyone who uses public lands needs to get a license to, to do that.
[15:53] Kevin Choquette: And so nobody’s given one out for 10 plus years. You guys are up there. Wrong place, right time or right. Wrong time, right place. Anyway, go ahead.
[16:01] Jeff Pensiero: And we just started grinding on it and literally like I had a house in Tahoe that after I was a rep down there,
[16:09] my father helped me and I had some money saved and I bought like a pretty modest little home in Kings Beach, California for $160,000. I think we put $40,000 down on it.
[16:20] I had three roommates in a two bedroom house.
[16:22] Kevin Choquette: Nice.
[16:23] Jeff Pensiero: Those deals.
[16:24] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[16:24] Jeff Pensiero: And that was right when real estate was going crazy.
[16:27] And since this is a real estate podcast, and because I think the statute of limitations has expired,
[16:32] they had this thing that I think led to a financial crisis called the stated income mortgage back then.
[16:39] Kevin Choquette: Yeah, totally. Liar loans.
[16:41] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, man, that was me. And so my house was going crazy in Tahoe at the time. Like it was appreciating, you know, significantly every year. And I was working on it all the time and improving it.
[16:53] And so I would just like get another mortgage. So at First I got $40,000 line of credit on that house.
[16:59] And I said to Fraps and Paula, I’m like, I’m willing to lose this money and I’m willing to lose this house,
[17:05] but let’s have the adventure of a lifetime and let’s see how far we can stretch this $40,000 and let’s make this thing happen. And so I started with that again.
[17:16] Long story short, I did that two more times on the same house with two other banks completely lying about how much money I made as a ******* handyman. Sorry, as a handyman in Lake Tahoe.
[17:28] And you know, my father passed away. I got a little bit of money from that and put that into it. And I just kept like doubling down on this idea, right?
[17:38] And it became clear to me that, you know, me and Paula were going to be something that was going to last forever.
[17:45] And so I was just all in, you know,
[17:48] all in.
[17:49] And I kept getting these little clues, you know, like I had a Toyota R22, a 1983 red little pickup truck. I bought a snowmobile back then and I would drive all over the province, the interior province of British Columbia just sending it up drainages and then snowshoeing around,
[18:08] looking at terrain and fraps was like, really reading up on, like,
[18:12] where there were,
[18:14] you know, wildlife closures, where there was first nations conflict, where heavy snowmobiling was. And we were just kind of like narrowing it down based out of Nelson on, like, where were some cool spots.
[18:24] And we thought, like, if we went to government and we went in with like seven spots instead of one,
[18:30] we could listen to them and, and listen to,
[18:33] you know, other interested parties and really, like narrow down our search by. By looking at multiple places. Right.
[18:42] And so we,
[18:45] we’re working on this thing and, and we’re grinding on all these places and I’m kind of doing all the groundwork and FRAPS was like meeting people in government. Paula was meeting people and,
[18:54] you know, we would come up for like two weeks at a time and really work, work, work, and then go back to Tahoe and try to make some more money or do some stuff and then come back up and check out this place that.
[19:03] And then eventually we ended up renting an apartment here or a little house right on, right up from Baker street here in Nelson. And.
[19:10] And we were like, all right, man, this is like getting pretty serious. And we did a bunch of public meetings and we got eviscerated by,
[19:19] you know, Canadians are,
[19:21] you know, especially in this time, I would warn you, like, Canadians are pretty tough people and they’re not super impressed with Americans coming up here thinking they’re the **** and that, you know, we’re going to grab big chunks of land and start making money on it.
[19:35] They’re. That’s not a thing.
[19:37] They, they’re very proud and they really love their country. I can say my country now because I’m a full fledged Canadian. But we were a bit ignorant and definitely thought we were cooler than we were probably at the time at 27, 28 years old.
[19:51] And we got our ***** handed to us by hunters, snowmobilers, government officials, First Nations.
[20:00] But I humbled up and I really listened and tried to hear the difference between people venting about how they felt about America and what the real issues were,
[20:10] and we would adapt. And,
[20:12] you know, that process was a real learning process, a real humbling learning process. And so a lot of those lessons have served me for my whole life, for sure shaped me into the entrepreneur I am.
[20:22] Kevin Choquette: So let’s. Let’s get a date. Is this like 2000?
[20:26] Jeff Pensiero: This would be like 98, 98, 99.
[20:29] Kevin Choquette: Okay.
[20:30] Jeff Pensiero: And.
[20:32] And I’m like kind of a Little bit, maybe spiritual kind of guy. And I’m always like looking for signs, you know,
[20:40] and they, I sure see them. And I’m walking down,
[20:45] I’m walking down Baker street one day and this ultra sick sport van with Washington plate literally pulls up right in front of me. If you haven’t been to Baker street, it’s a pretty small little main street in Nelson.
[20:56] And like this white sport van, you know, those were those like lifted Ford Econoline vans with like a pop top on them and like an extra tire. Like pre sprinter vans.
[21:06] Kevin Choquette: These like sports mobiles.
[21:08] Jeff Pensiero: That’s it. Sports mobile, yeah. So this thing pulls up and the door, and I’m checking it out, like, holy, what a rig. And the door opens up and Craig Kelly walks out.
[21:19] Kevin Choquette: Oh, wow.
[21:20] Jeff Pensiero: Like the greatest snowboarder of all time. The guy who won every contest of all time and turned his back on snowboarding competition. Snowboarding and went into the backcountry, became part of Island Lake Lodge over in Fernian.
[21:33] This dude jumps out of his van and he looks at me, he’s like, hey, you live here? I’m like, yeah, yeah.
[21:41] And he’s like,
[21:42] is there a CD store in this town? I’m driving over to Fern, I’m looking for some CDs and I’m literally standing in front of a CD store and I like point over my shoulder.
[21:50] I’m like,
[21:51] well, you parked in the right spot. That’s a CD store right there.
[21:54] And then I’m like, are you, you Craig Kelly? He’s like, yeah. And I just reached out my hand and shook his hand. I’m like, I, I, I’m a like big fan, man.
[22:01] I love everything you do. He goes, cool, all right, have a good day. And he goes to the store and I run home to Paula and Fraps and they’re both skiers.
[22:09] And I’m like a 13 year old who just met, you know,
[22:14] Joe Namath the back. I’m like, oh my God, Craig Kelly’s on Baker Street. He said hello. And I shook his head like, I’m never going to wash my hand again.
[22:20] If we’re looking for a sign, this is a ******* sign. Like I’m, this is crazy.
[22:24] They’re like, whatever, Jeff. And so there was this moment where I was like, you know what?
[22:28] Everything happens for a reason and you got to look for it. And I’m like, I am more committed than ever now to this thing. Like,
[22:35] you know,
[22:36] so as I’m driving all over the province and kind of.
[22:40] Kevin Choquette: Wait, wait, wait, you didn’t like, get his phone number or. Because I know you guys. In future versions, as this unfolds, Craig was a meaningful part of it.
[22:49] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, I’ll get to that. That’s coming.
[22:52] So as I’m traveling all over the province and. And recklessly snowshoeing, snowmobiling, being an idiot without enough education in the backcountry,
[23:04] I had taken some avalanche classes, but definitely was no ski guide.
[23:09] We had a terrible avalanche in Nelson that killed 11 people up at a ski touring lodge at Kokanee Glacier Cabin. And it really shook the town.
[23:17] Really, really shook the town. And I was not even aware of what was going on. There’s a very beloved coffee shop in Nelson called Oso Negro, and I would go there for coffee first thing in the morning and then out into the woods every day.
[23:29] And this. This gentleman noticed.
[23:31] Oh, we also would put our management plan in Oso Negro and allow people to comment on it at the coffee shop,
[23:38] which was amazing. Anyways,
[23:41] Buffy,
[23:42] this guy comes up to me. He’s like, what are you doing out there? I see you here every morning with a snowmobile, and you look like you’re dressed to go in the back country.
[23:49] What are you doing? And I. I told him,
[23:51] and he’s like, buddy, it’s. It’s really touchy out there. Like, do you have.
[23:56] Do you have some certification? You know, are you experienced? I’m like, oh, yeah, I’m from Tahoe. I know what I’m doing.
[24:03] So he’s like, why don’t you let me take you out? I’m a. I’m a. I’m a ski guide. And,
[24:07] you know, maybe. Maybe we should talk a little bit. Maybe you should, like, take some classes. And. And, you know, I’m interested in what you’re doing. I’m a snowboarder, too,
[24:16] although he was a telemarker at the time.
[24:20] And so this gentleman, John Buffery, offered to come out with me a couple times. And we went out and I started learning exponential amounts of information about the snowpack and how to plan routes and how to keep myself safe by touring with John Buffery, who was previously the head of snow safety for cmh,
[24:40] who was an examiner with the association of Canadian Mountain Guides, one of the most respected people in this field.
[24:48] Kevin Choquette: Wow.
[24:48] Jeff Pensiero: And we become buddies.
[24:50] Like, we become buddies,
[24:52] and I start playing chess with them in the evenings and drinking, like, hippie twig tea with him, and he’s older than me, and I was like, oh, my God. I.
[25:01] I think I found my mentor. You know, it was like, unbelievable. I’m getting a little, like, I’m glad it’s not a video podcast. I look like a suck right now.
[25:09] Like,
[25:10] I was like, I think I just found my mentor, you know, and. And we got along really good, you know,
[25:16] and so down the road we go. And then one day, Buffery invites me over to his house to have a game of chess. We played a lot of chess back then.
[25:23] And we talk about things and look at maps.
[25:26] And in his house, I walk and I turn the corner, and there’s a chessboard all set up and his little teapot.
[25:32] And there’s Craig Kelly sitting at the other side of the chessboard. Oh, wow. And I, like, back up. And I make eyes of Buffery. I’m like, what the.
[25:40] And he’s like,
[25:42] jeff, I think you should meet my friend Craig. I’m his private guide. We’re planning a trip to Iran.
[25:47] I’ve been with him on a lot of adventures. I think he’d be a really good guy for you to meet and talk to.
[25:51] He’s. He’s a proponent at Island Lake Lodge. And I told him what you’re doing, and I think you guys should meet.
[25:58] And I’m like, you’re kidding me. I’m like, craig, I met you in front of the CD store.
[26:02] Don’t you remember?
[26:04] He totally didn’t remember.
[26:06] You know,
[26:07] Craig’s like,
[26:09] hey, man, you’re onto something, man. Like, snowboarding’s, you know, blowing up, and you’re a little ahead of the curve. And I. I see it at Island Lake with the ski guides and the snowboarders, and we’re kind of fighting an uphill battle over there.
[26:19] And Island. I have. I love Island Lake Lodge. I think they do a great job,
[26:23] but it is ski. Ski centric. And my idea was like, let’s open a snowboarding lodge that welcomes skiers and doesn’t make skiers feel bad.
[26:33] Kevin Choquette: But let’s maybe.
[26:35] Jeff Pensiero: Let’s not fake it out and make it be like,
[26:38] oh, here’s some old wooden skis I bought in the thrift store and put it up on the wall. Like, let’s put up old snowboards that we love, and let’s have snowboarding guides and develop the snowboarding culture and, like, make a place for snowboarding in the backcountry.
[26:49] That’s, like, not European ethic. Like, serving raclette pickles after shredding. Like, I wanted it to be really, like, for my friends and my community up there.
[26:59] And Craig, like, was like, man, that’s it.
[27:02] So yeah. All of a sudden I got Paula fraps, Craig and Buff, and we’re all like, yeah, let’s do some work on this thing.
[27:14] And so as we’re narrowing it down from those seven areas, we kept flying over this one right in front of Nelson and Craig and Buff. And I was looking at like huge terrain.
[27:23] I was looking at where Micah Heli skiing is now, where Chatter Creek Kiss now like these amazingly beautiful and crazy terrain spots.
[27:33] And both of them reign me in. And they’re like that place right in front of Nelson is the spot. All the ridges are connected. All your guides can live in town.
[27:41] It’s easy to provision. Your customers are going to love being in Nelson.
[27:45] You’re going to start out as a day operation and grow into a lodge operation. You know, they, they really saw that and those guys really put me onto that piece.
[27:53] Piece of terrain.
[27:54] And so we eventually in, in late 99 or late 98,
[27:58] said that’s the place we started doing a wildlife inventory,
[28:01] started taking more specific steps so that we could develop what we call a management plan. And that’s what you send out to referrals. So all the wildlife, forestry, first nations, like all these different proponents, get a chance to,
[28:15] to view it and, and,
[28:17] and respond to it. And then you take that, you, you take their feedback and kind of rewrite it. And then you put it into the government for consideration.
[28:25] So we put it in and they said,
[28:29] yeah, we’ll take a look at this thing. And just like nothing was happening. So we started driving over to Cranbrook and buying donuts for all the bureaucrats in the, in the office.
[28:39] So we would just sit there because we were running out of money. I’m not gonna lie, I love it. And we were like,
[28:45] we gotta buy two dozen donuts to just buy em for everybody and tell them who we are. And I still hear about that today from like, hey, you’re the guy that.
[28:53] Kevin Choquette: Bought all the donuts.
[28:54] Jeff Pensiero: 100%. I was like, dude,
[28:56] my dad, he was a really wise Italian guy. He. And I never understood half the **** he said to me, really. But he would say, you, you get more bees with honey than with vinegar.
[29:05] Kevin Choquette: Uhhuh.
[29:06] Jeff Pensiero: Which, that’s an Italian expression that doesn’t translate very well. But I took that as like, buy donuts for Canadian bureaucrats. And it worked.
[29:14] So we ended up getting our tenure in late 99 and we were out of gas.
[29:21] Like, no cash.
[29:22] Kevin Choquette: No cash. Yeah.
[29:23] Jeff Pensiero: First guys that came on, my buddy Arlie,
[29:27] he’s like,
[29:28] I got a buddy, Nate Mendel. He’s in this band, and this band is doing really good, and they don’t even know what to do with their money right now. Maybe I can.
[29:34] He’s a snowboarder. He used to ride for Lib.
[29:37] I’m trying to make this not a crazy long story, but I’m doing a terrible job. But long story short,
[29:43] Nate wrote the first check outside of myself. It was like 50,000, $60,000.
[29:48] He got his buddy Dave, Dave Grohl to write another check that gave us 110, $120,000.
[29:54] We ended up buying a canvas dome and our first snowcat.
[30:00] Kevin Choquette: Wow.
[30:01] Jeff Pensiero: Prince George.
[30:02] So all of a sudden, now I’ve got Craig Kelly, John Buffery, Paula Fraps,
[30:06] and the Foo Fighters as my partners.
[30:09] And I’m like,
[30:10] you gotta be kidding.
[30:13] I remember looking in the mirror sometimes, just being like, I can’t.
[30:16] There’s no way I’m quitting. This is too. I said I would do the greatest adventure of all time for $40,000. I’m into this thing for, like, $250,000 in stated mortgage loans.
[30:27] I’ve taken $120,000 on from these rock stars who were so cool.
[30:34] And I’m like, let’s go.
[30:36] So we get the tenure, and we’re like, woohoo.
[30:41] But we quickly realized we didn’t know anything about cat skiing.
[30:44] Kevin Choquette: Oh, wow.
[30:47] Jeff Pensiero: I mean, driving a snow cat is hard, and building cat roads and powder is really hard. So we end up getting a young guy, he’s got some experience. We start putting the cat roads in.
[30:57] That year is a particularly ****** winter.
[30:59] We used a boat to go across the lake. We’d get into a rented budget truck,
[31:05] drive it up this dirt road with chains on all four,
[31:09] get to the dome, give people beacons. Buffery and Craig were their guides. And Mark Fawcett actually, too, a 14 time Canadian world cup champion, great guy. He had his guiding search.
[31:20] So Fawcett would guide one cat. We take people up.
[31:25] I think it took about two hours to get in, two hours to get out. We’d shred for about six hours and go out.
[31:31] It was not the experience that it is today,
[31:35] but we were trying really hard. And people really loved the grind that we had back then. Like, we were literally making their sandwiches and baking cookies for them. And we would get customers by, like, going to the breakfast spots in Nelson and looking for, like, rich people that were going to Whitewater.
[31:53] We’d be like, you want to come try out our new cat skiing?
[31:55] Kevin Choquette: I love it, dude.
[31:56] Jeff Pensiero: It is so funny.
[31:57] Kevin Choquette: I love It. So,
[31:59] hey, let’s, let’s come back to like, the, the early grind chapter with a couple things you said that I think are really interesting.
[32:06] This, the experience of that early exploration when you’re like, cool, here’s my coffee. I’m gonna go back on the 22, the 1983 22R Toyota pickup. By the way, I had the 86 those last year.
[32:18] You could get it carbureted. Yeah, but, but what’s that like? You’re just like, zipping out into who knows where.
[32:25] Like, what was that like?
[32:26] Jeff Pensiero: It was so rad.
[32:28] God, when I put myself back,
[32:31] it was just like, I just wanted to get as much experience as I could and get better at snowmobiling and better at traveling through mountains safely and British Columbia to me, you know, I’m from Cleveland, Ohio, originally,
[32:48] and my journey kind of took me further and further and further into the mountains at every step and, and all of a sudden I was in bc.
[32:56] Not all of a sudden, but I was in British Columbia with a snowmobile and a pickup truck. And I just felt like this opportunity I needed to spend every moment of sunlight,
[33:06] like, doing it.
[33:08] You know, I, I, I fail forward. I learned every time I got that snowmobile stuck, I was stoked. I wasn’t ******. I was like, I’m learning how to get the snowmobile unstuck better than I did last time.
[33:19] You know,
[33:21] this was like checking out these little towns in the interior, going all the way up to Golden, B.C. i mean, I don’t know if you’ve ever been there, but this area that we live in,
[33:29] and I’ve traveled pretty extensively, I, it’s the,
[33:33] it’s just the greatest place on the planet Earth. I can’t even believe. Interior of British Columbia is unbelievable place.
[33:41] And I,
[33:42] I still travel and I, I love coming home and I fish in the summer and I just go deep, deep, deep. British Columbia. It’s so rad up here.
[33:51] And that’s never worn off since then. So,
[33:54] you know, at the time I just was like, oh, my God,
[33:57] yes. Like, what’s today?
[33:59] What’s next? You know,
[34:02] I kind of invincible a little bit.
[34:05] Kevin Choquette: Any hairy experiences?
[34:07] Jeff Pensiero: Oh, yes, every day.
[34:09] Every ******* day. I was doing the dumbest **** and getting away with it. Getting away with it. And like,
[34:15] yeah, I, it was wild, man.
[34:17] Kevin Choquette: And those sleds were a lot harder to handle back.
[34:18] Jeff Pensiero: Hell, yes, they were. It was crazy. I, I couldn’t even afford the, like, super good RMK 700. I had the 600 that. It’s a Joke compared to what I ride right now.
[34:28] And my skill level was a joke compared to what it is now. And I would just drive the sled up until I got it super stuck,
[34:35] dig a massive hole and turn it around, and then start from there. Just start walking on snowshoes.
[34:42] Like,
[34:43] my energy level was crazy. And I’m not gonna lie. Like, I drank back then. So I would, like,
[34:48] my backcountry kit had like a small first aid kit,
[34:52] a small snow study kit, shovel, probe, beacon, and like four beers and like a half a subway sandwich. Like, that was my kit to go out the day.
[35:04] Yeah, it’s definitely not like that anymore. And I would never take anybody else into that realm. But that was my personal. Was like, oh, yeah, beer at the top, beer at the bottom,
[35:14] beer for when I get back to the truck.
[35:15] Kevin Choquette: I don’t even remember when Google Earth popped on the scene, but was that a tool that you guys were able.
[35:22] Jeff Pensiero: We had paper maps, man, and we had an apartment. We would buy the paper maps. They had a little number in a letter at the bottom, like F8211.
[35:31] And it would be a 1 to 20 or a 1 to 50,000 map. And we would glue them, tape them on the wall,
[35:37] fold it up, and then we would draw on those maps like, this area is out. This area. You got to cross 11 avalanche paths to get to the good. It’s never going to be good.
[35:46] This one’ got too much south terrain, not enough north. Like, you know, and we just sat there. Literally. I would explore those once in a while. We had a friend who was getting his pilot’s license.
[35:56] This is funny. We had a friend who was getting his pilot’s license, and we were like, hey, man,
[36:01] can we fly around with you? You know, he’s like, yeah, I gotta get all these hours flying. Yeah, like, sure,
[36:07] not a great idea. But we would fly around with this guy who really was learning how to be a pilot, and we would, like, just scope terrain from this Cessna 172 flying in terrible weather in the winter in the mountains.
[36:21] And we’re like, we’ll buy your gas if we could fly around and look.
[36:23] Kevin Choquette: At stuff, Just get us home.
[36:25] Jeff Pensiero: It was wild. That was wild. Yeah.
[36:29] Kevin Choquette: And then the other thing you mentioned just sort of in passing is being humbled up by being eviscerated with your bright eye, bushy tail. Like, what was the experience of that?
[36:41] Jeff Pensiero: I’ll tell you a good story. We went up to the Slocam Valley and we brought the government guy, Robin Fawcett, with Us really nice guy. And, you know, we said, we want to do these public meetings so that people don’t hear about this and say, I’ve never heard about this.
[36:53] What are these guys? What is it? So, you know, we went to this pub in Slocane City, which is very.
[36:59] It’s a combination of logger mentality. And then this organization called the Valhalla Wilderness Society was founded there. And it’s really a great organization that. That really focuses on saving untouched terrain for future generations.
[37:13] Much in the Teddy Roosevelt, you know,
[37:16] mindset. This amazing, amazing environmentalist started it. It continues on today.
[37:21] But the Valley is where the loggers and the environmentalists live,
[37:26] and there’s first nations interest there, and people take the Valley very, very seriously. And, and our tenure actually isn’t really involved with the Valley, but since it’s adjacent, we thought it would be a good spot to do a meeting.
[37:37] So we go to this meeting and we have our map and we got the government guy. And we’re like, you know, look, we just want to hear like, are you guys snowmobiling in this area?
[37:44] Where are you snowmobiling? Like, how would it affect your snowmobiling? How would it affect the animals back there? Like, are there any cultural values? You know, and, you know, we heard it from some people, like, ah, you know, we just don’t like the idea of some Americans coming up and running a business here.
[37:58] Like, okay, well, it is what it is. We don’t like the idea of any commercial recreation in the back country.
[38:04] It should all be at scariest. Oh, okay, fair enough. You know, get it. But there’s this pathway here, and like, we think there’s too many helicopters everywhere. And it’s like, well, we’re not using a helicopter.
[38:13] So, you know. Yeah, you know,
[38:15] and we have this meeting and it gets a little heated a few times, but we kind of talk it down and try to have some be in relationship with the people in the room.
[38:22] And we walk out,
[38:25] and the drunkest dude in the whole room, he has one eye going in one direction and he’s wearing like overalls. And he’s just like, ******.
[38:32] He’s ******.
[38:34] And he goes right up to Fraps. And, and Fraps was a pretty big dude with these massive hands. His hands were huge.
[38:42] And, and, and Fraps didn’t take any **** from anybody. He’s from Pittsburgh, right?
[38:47] And this guy comes up to us in the parking lot and the government guy’s there and he goes, hey,
[38:52] I don’t know what you guys are Thinking,
[38:54] but I don’t like the idea, you guys coming up here.
[38:58] I don’t think you got any rights here. You should be down in America.
[39:01] He goes, and I don’t care if the government gives you your permit or not,
[39:05] because I’ve been hunting in these hills 25 years.
[39:09] I could shoot a cougar at full stride, 200 yards perhaps. His eyes go up,
[39:14] he goes, if you think you’re gonna be snowmobiling around back there, setting up your little cat skiing area,
[39:19] you better realize you’ll hear the shot. And that’s all you’re gonna hear, because I’ll get you.
[39:24] Kevin Choquette: Jesus.
[39:24] Jeff Pensiero: Snowmobile.
[39:25] And Fraps, without even thinking, looks at him and pulls his massive hand up into a fist and just says,
[39:33] don’t ******* miss.
[39:37] And then turn.
[39:41] It was so sick.
[39:43] And we ended up getting to know that guy pretty good. He was a flat deck logger that drove a lot of our equipment around. He worked for one of the companies that we ended up,
[39:51] do a lot of stuff.
[39:53] And that story kind of will go down forever, I’m sure. But Fraps was a great business partner back then. He and I were an unbelievable team. Putting that together with Paula.
[40:03] The three of us just came together and were able to get so much great stuff done.
[40:07] Kevin Choquette: The other thing you mentioned is this management plan.
[40:11] I think it was when I was at Whitefish.
[40:17] It might have been you guys, but the wolverine was something that came up, and I realized there are some species up there that need a bit of a birth. So what.
[40:26] What does that part look like? How technical do you get in assessing all of the resources and sort of figuring out how you’re gonna address them?
[40:36] Jeff Pensiero: I guess it’s a. It’s a constantly changing playing field with environment and first nations value because they’re. They’re still learning all the time too.
[40:45] And what was true 10 years ago is. Is a different truth now.
[40:50] And so realizing that, like, nobody’s trying to, like, there’s no gotcha in any of this stuff, they’re just trying to manage things better all the time.
[40:59] And I’m of the same mindset.
[41:01] I don’t want to, you know,
[41:03] be the. To the. I don’t want to be operating at the detriment to anything that was here before me and should be here after me.
[41:11] So we invite in the first nations, we invite in the biologists. We actually just participated in a wolverine,
[41:19] what do they call it? Inventory,
[41:21] which is actually kind of interesting because they go find dead beavers, literally,
[41:27] and then they go to trees in the alpine and they go climb up the trees with these ladders and they nail the beavers onto these trees like 15ft above the snow line.
[41:38] And then they wrap these dead stapled to the tree beavers with barbed wire.
[41:43] And the wolverines are so gnar and they leave it up for the whole winter. So sometimes when we’re touring around, you gotta kind of avoid showing anybody the freaking dead beaver on the tree.
[41:54] They smell really bad too.
[41:56] Kevin Choquette: Strapped up with barbed wire.
[41:58] Jeff Pensiero: But the wolverines will go and climb the trees and go nibble on these, these rotting beaver carcasses. But they leave their DNA on the barbed wire.
[42:08] And so they can do these inventories and they can tell where the wolverines are traveling. We actually have had some wolverine in our area, but it’s not a regular occurrence.
[42:19] It’s up in higher alpine, like over, if you remember, to the east of us is Kokanee Glacier park.
[42:25] And but we, we participate in all of those things. We are in an active whitebark pine management project.
[42:32] Whitebark pine is a really interesting species that the first nations have known about for eons.
[42:38] And when logging, they’ve been indiscriminately just like hacked down because they’re not like a high value lumber tree. But they’ve realized,
[42:46] you know, in the cambium layer there’s like high antioxidant properties that are actually cancer fighting. They used to use the bark from the white bark pine to build those sturgeon nosed kayaks.
[42:57] So to the first nations, they really want to see these trees which are the indigenous original trees, come back.
[43:03] So as we do logging around the lodge, as we, as we build things, we really avoid them, we locate them,
[43:08] we share the information,
[43:10] we help monitor, we help make the,
[43:14] make the conditions better for them to grow as opposed to like the subalpine balsam and fir that are kind of like volunteer trees that come in.
[43:25] So yeah, we work with as much as we can and we alter everything we can to, to make, you know,
[43:31] we’re just one player in this thing. I’m not there to like push wildlife out or push first nations or push snowmobiles out or whatever it is. Like we gotta all get along back there.
[43:41] And I, I live this gifted life up here and I really want to, you know, make sure other people have the opportunity to do the same thing. For sure.
[43:46] Kevin Choquette: Yeah, that’s cool. Just to be a steward of it. But is this like,
[43:50] you know, in,
[43:52] in California, there’s the California Environmental Quality act and you have to do these environmental impact reports and they end up being, like, you know,
[44:00] 542 pages, and nobody even reads them. But you spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to sort of put it on a desk and go, look, we did the eir.
[44:10] Can we get an approval?
[44:12] That kind of thing, or is it. Is it more subdued or rational?
[44:16] Jeff Pensiero: No, I mean,
[44:17] I just, like.
[44:19] I think to be in my seat, I have to be of the mindset that while the bureaucracy in British Columbia makes the bureaucracy in California look like kindergarten, I promise you, this is.
[44:30] The bureaucracy here is a hundred times bigger than it’ll ever be in California.
[44:34] Kevin Choquette: Wow.
[44:35] Jeff Pensiero: And bureaucrats are a way of life up here. Over 50% of the population works for the government here. Right? Like, wow. Yeah. So I also live in the town with all these people, and our kids play soccer together, and they do dance class.
[44:48] And to be a good member of the community is to also respect what they got to do. So I try to be the. I try to.
[44:55] I try to not paint these. These projects with a cynical light.
[45:01] It’s part of my obligation to be able to use this land, to be able to be an employer here,
[45:07] to be able to take guys like you up there and show you the infinite wisdom of the backcountry, which is my mission statement.
[45:13] And if I gotta staple a beaver to a tree and avoid that tree so that wolverines could come in there, and those wolverines may end up excluding me from a big part of the tenure.
[45:22] I’m all in.
[45:23] I’m all in. I’m not gonna **** with. Sorry. I’m not gonna mess with that, because I know the rules when I got into it, and I’m not gonna get upset when the rules change.
[45:33] I’m gonna. I’m gonna play by the rules and try to be a good citizen, because it’s worked out really well for me that way,
[45:39] you know?
[45:40] Kevin Choquette: Cool. All right, so let’s go back to,
[45:43] you know, chapter one. You’re up there, you’ve got a cat. You don’t know, really how to build the roads. You’ve got a shack. You’re grinding it out, cooking peanut butter cookies and making sandwiches for folks.
[45:54] So this is now 2002.
[45:57] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah. Well, this would be 99, 2000. We’re doing this. And then.
[46:03] So I’m remodeling my house in Tahoe, trying to do these stated mortgage incomes everywhere,
[46:08] income mortgages everywhere I can.
[46:11] And I dug the entire basement out of my house so that I could put a suite in without permits. Sorry, Cajo. Speaking of the rpa, And I got this great buddy helping me out.
[46:22] And I’m like, doing all the work myself. I’m hiring friends that are electricians and plumbers and contractors, and they’re helping me out in the evenings.
[46:30] So the electrician, Brian the Tuna man, he is,
[46:35] I’m pulling wire for the electrician down in my basement. And he is so in love with what I’m doing. He thinks it’s the coolest thing he’s ever heard.
[46:43] You crazy. He’s like, from Jersey. He’s like, you crazy bad. You going up to British Columbia, chase a girl. You go, my God, you’re like a. So he was really into that band.
[46:53] Hot Tuna had been to every Hot Tuna show ever. It was like a deadhead, but for Hot Tuna. So we call him the Tuna Man.
[47:01] So, like, Jorma Kaukonen was his guiding light in life. And Jack Cassidy. Anyways,
[47:07] Tuna man is talking to me and he’s like, man, I’m doing all these rich guys work over in ta in,
[47:13] in Inclined Village, man. You should give me your business plan. I got this one guy, I’ll slide it on his desk for you.
[47:20] So,
[47:21] and we’re like, Dave and Nate are like, we’re not putting any more money into this thing. You know, you’re good, but you got to find, like a real investor. So I’m rewriting the business plan.
[47:31] Rewriting the business plan. P and L income statement, balance sheet. I kind of know what I’m doing, but not really. And I’m like, writing this great plan. And our plan was so far reaching and huge.
[47:40] And he slips it onto this guy’s desk in Tahoe.
[47:45] And I get this call from a number I didn’t recognize. And I’m like, hello. And he’s like,
[47:52] are you Jeff Pencero? And I’m like, yeah, really direct.
[47:55] It’s like, my name’s Rob Lohan.
[47:57] How did you get into my house?
[48:00] I’m like, what are you talking about? He goes, I’m reading this business plan here. I never asked for your business plan. It’s on my desk and it’s underneath two other plans that I’m working on.
[48:08] How did you get into my house? He’s like, really concerned. I’m like, I, dude, literally, I,
[48:13] I,
[48:13] I didn’t put, I didn’t break into your house, I swear to God. I, I don’t know. I, I go,
[48:18] do you know, you know the Tuna Man?
[48:21] And like, the full conversation changes. He’s like, brian the electrician. He’s like, oh, my God, I Love that guy. I’m like, yeah, he’s,
[48:28] he’s a friend of mine. He’s helped me out. He asked me for my business plan. Said he knew a rich guy in Incline who like invests in weird things. And he’s like,
[48:35] oh,
[48:36] that makes sense. Okay, yeah. So end up going and playing golf with Rob.
[48:42] Rob Lohan had a software company that he exited right when software was booming where he made a whack of cash. And he was really into scuba diving and really into shredding.
[48:54] And me and him and his wife kind of started up a friendship. And then he was like, listen,
[49:00] you don’t know **** about writing a business plan or forecasting or anything. And literally, Rob took me under his wing and taught me how to use Excel and really like helped me write a real business plan.
[49:13] And then he’s like, you think you could do this? I’m like, I think I can do it. He goes, okay, I’m in.
[49:17] And so we started designing a lodge. Three and a half million dollar lodge. And we,
[49:21] we said, let’s go. And we hired excavators and bulldozers. We started building that road up to lodge. We got the permits and I started selling seats to this German company that was going to book Thursday, Friday, Saturday,
[49:34] Sunday,
[49:35] every week, all season long to German tour groups. And I would only have to sell the weekdays to like, Canadians. And, and I had a plan to go to Seattle and Spokane and, and Boise and get customers.
[49:46] And like, everything’s going along and we’re building this freaking road up there.
[49:50] And we’re like, oh my God, the lodge is going to be so rad. It’s got a wildlife viewing platform. And I put a pinball room in there and was like, yeah, this is going to be snowboarder lodge.
[49:58] It’s going to be amazing.
[49:59] And then 911 happened and Rob calls like 9 13. He’s like, guys,
[50:06] I have no idea what the world is looking like, but I am not spending three and a half million dollars on a backcountry snowboarding lodge of British Columbia anymore. You got to alter your plan.
[50:16] And it was like.
[50:18] And then like a week later, the Germans called. They’re like, we’re not traveling this year.
[50:23] So I was like, oh.
[50:25] And I was like,
[50:27] all right, well,
[50:29] too late. Stop now. Right?
[50:31] So as we’re building the road up there, we shift plans and we make it into a 40 by 40 timber frame building. And we get some ATCO trailers. Those are like portable work site trailers.
[50:43] And we set up this little village up there. And we’re like,
[50:46] it. We’re all in.
[50:47] We built this thing out,
[50:49] and we open.
[50:52] I somehow start hustling all my snowboard friends, all the companies back then. Burton steps up.
[50:59] Lib Tech stepped up. Billabong stepped up. I went to all of those guys, was like, guys, I need your sales meetings. I need your. Your photo shoots. I need everything to get this thing off the ground.
[51:08] And hustled so hard.
[51:11] And we opened,
[51:12] and it was kind of amazing. We bought another cat. We had two cats. You know, we. We literally went to L.L. bean and bought all their discounted sheets and everything, you know, out of the back.
[51:22] Like,
[51:24] it was so wild, man. It was. You were.
[51:26] Kevin Choquette: You were using the. The affiliation or relationships with the brands to get them to do their corporate retreats and other things out there.
[51:34] Jeff Pensiero: 100%. 100% man deep.
[51:39] I went so hard. It was wild. I don’t even know where I got the energy for that. That’s why I look like I’m 90 years old now, but grind, grind, grind.
[51:50] And,
[51:50] you know, the thing was, we had. Craig was one of the guys, Fawcett was one of the guides. Buffery was running the thing. We did our first guide training. It was amazing.
[51:57] It was amazing. We knew we were starting something legendary. You know, we. We knew we were starting a generational place while we were doing it, which is a really cool feeling,
[52:08] that guide training. We did more construction, cleanup and carpentry than we did training. Honestly,
[52:14] it was unbelievable.
[52:16] I will cherish those times forever.
[52:19] The furniture for the lodge we bought. We literally bought off of old ladies who died and their families were selling their furniture. We’re like, oh, that couch will go up there.
[52:28] Oh, dishes. Great. It was wild.
[52:32] Kevin Choquette: So let’s talk about the capital side.
[52:34] You did 40,000 three times or so.
[52:38] Hey, no, my house is worth more. I’ll sign that. I’ll sign that. Second, third, mortgage.
[52:42] Jeff Pensiero: 40, 80, 100.
[52:44] Kevin Choquette: There you go.
[52:44] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah.
[52:46] Kevin Choquette: So that. And then it sounds like Dave and. And Nate threw some. Maybe 110. And then. I mean, doesn’t sound.
[52:58] Jeff Pensiero: Rob’s three and a half million turned into, like, 350,000. Right.
[53:03] Kevin Choquette: Okay, so to say you’re doing this bootstrapping is an understatement. How do you. How do you manage to go from,
[53:10] okay, one cat and a canvas shack to,
[53:13] like, I don’t know how many of the cabins there are now. Maybe a dozen.
[53:16] Jeff Pensiero: Oh, the cabins were way later.
[53:18] Yeah, that was just a lodge in the echo trailers. And so it was a lot of.
[53:25] I don’t Know the legal word for it, but just like, kind of relationship management,
[53:31] you know? And, like, I went into this town and we owed the hardware store a couple hundred thousand dollars. We owed the contractor four or five hundred thousand dollars. We ow a lot of people a lot of money.
[53:41] And I went around and was like, look, man, we took in,
[53:45] you know, $12,000 this week.
[53:48] Here’s your $680.
[53:50] Here’s your $700. Like, I went and handed out checks to everybody and was like, just, just stick with us, dude. I’m not going to lie to you. But, like, we’re going to make this work.
[53:59] And, and I’m never going to forget that you like, I, I, I’m, I,
[54:03] I’m out of business if you don’t take this check. And I’m gonna be good for it, I promise. It’s just 9, 11, all these things. Managing relationships, man, is everything.
[54:11] I didn’t bullshit anybody ever. I was just straight up with everybody,
[54:16] did the best I could.
[54:17] And, you know, people respected that and gave us a chance, thank God, because this town needed this, too.
[54:24] Kevin Choquette: But outside of this initial, I mean, look, I can’t even get to a million dollars. You have a very significant operation up there.
[54:32] Have you just been reinvesting profits forever? Okay, parlay, parlay, parlay.
[54:37] Jeff Pensiero: There’s more, there’s more great people that. So we’re, we’re. I’ll get back to the plot here. Sorry this is taking so long. I got it.
[54:43] Kevin Choquette: It’s all good.
[54:44] Jeff Pensiero: It’s all good. So we opened that year. It’s amazing. We got some cat roads. Cut. We got two cats. And then my buddy, my partner, my mentor Craig, is killed in an avalanche on January 20, the year we opened.
[54:59] And that was the first time I was like, oh, I don’t know if I want to do this. He had just had his first daughter, Olivia,
[55:06] his only daughter, Olivia, who just graduated from Colorado State yesterday, by the way. And it was the saddest.
[55:15] It was just awful. And we had to keep running,
[55:19] you know,
[55:20] And I don’t know if you remember that, but that shook snowboarding, like, deeply. And the whole backcountry pushing film and all this stuff was just like, if Craig Kelly can die,
[55:30] what is happening? He was so conscientious. So I went to the memorial service in Bellingham, Washington,
[55:40] and I’m standing there, and Ari Markopoulos, one of the most accomplished snowboarders of all, or filmers, shooters of all time, is next to me.
[55:49] And Jake walks up next to me. Jake.
[55:52] Jake Burton, carpenter, Walks up next to me and puts his arm around me.
[55:56] And he just looked at me and goes, you can’t quit.
[55:59] He’s like, you cannot quit.
[56:01] He’s like, you got this. And I was like, oh, you look for the signs, right?
[56:05] I was like,
[56:06] I was really ready to quit. Jake.
[56:09] He’s like, you got this.
[56:11] Don’t let Craig die for nothing. Like, stick, stick with me. Call me if you need me. You know, I’m here for you.
[56:18] So. All right. We grind out that season. I’m going to speed it up. And we just keep grinding and we keep getting better.
[56:24] And this,
[56:25] the support from the brands continues. And I’m doing full lodge bookings with Snowboarder Magazine, with Trans World, with Burton, with Billabong, with Skull Candy. When they started, like, big brands coming up there doing full lodge bookings.
[56:38] It’s that trickle down from all those guys had a great time. They tell their friends. It’s like, it was incredible. I went to Squaw Valley,
[56:47] put flyers under everybody’s windows on President’s Day weekend,
[56:51] and sold the whole lodge out. The next season.
[56:55] I was like, oh, my God, we’re doing this thing.
[56:56] Kevin Choquette: This is nice.
[56:58] Jeff Pensiero: Yes. The money wasn’t great. Like, two cats doesn’t really pay for itself. So we expanded to. We built seven timber frame chalets next to the lodge.
[57:07] Kevin Choquette: So how many years into this are you before you get to. Okay, the lodge is fully booked this year.
[57:12] Jeff Pensiero: We’re seven years into it. Whoa.
[57:15] And my partner Rob was like, we gotta expand. We brought on another partner, Henry Fisherman.
[57:22] Unbelievable man who helped me so much with construction. He’s built a lot of houses. Hood river guy,
[57:29] great mentor.
[57:31] Henry was unbelievable. And these guys start helping me. And then one by one, like, Eric Ladd comes on, puts in 100 grand. He was the director of sales at Yellowstone Club.
[57:40] Great network,
[57:41] great guy. Lanny Andrews, one of our customers, he’s a Doctor, put in 100 grand. I started getting all these people putting in 100 here,
[57:50] 100 there. It’s like, oh, my God, this is happening. We build out these seven timber frame chalets, put a roof over all the echo trailers so we didn’t have to shovel the roofs anymore.
[57:58] And we keep selling the place out. 2006, 2007, all the way up till 2012.
[58:06] We are killing it.
[58:08] We’re full. And my snowboarding dream is like, we are the place for snowboarders to come. Paula and I obviously got married.
[58:15] We have two children. At this point,
[58:17] she’s pregnant again.
[58:19] She said she wanted to have A third and ended up being twins.
[58:22] We’re cranking along.
[58:24] Travis Rice, greatest snowboarder in the world, starts showing up, tells me he has this idea to do a competition.
[58:30] I start working with him on that. Teton gravity research, shows up, asked me if I’m interested in building the biggest gap jump in the history of the world for Sage,
[58:38] Abreta, Colossa, and a couple of the TGR athletes. Unbelievable. Things are going crazy. The ******* Canucks are in the playoffs, if you can believe that.
[58:48] We’re all up there building the biggest gap jump ever built. And slowly, we start hearing these loud cracking noises,
[58:55] like explosions.
[58:57] It had been a crazy spring.
[58:59] We had 42ft of snow on the roof.
[59:02] We started shoveling the roof off,
[59:04] and the roof collapsed, and the entire lodge was destroyed. Full right off.
[59:10] Now, not the timber frame, not the chalets, but the sleeping accommodation part. It’s Mother’s Day.
[59:16] We had just had twins.
[59:18] I got Travis on one side, Todd from Todd Jones from TJ on the other side. And I’m like, dude, it’s game over.
[59:25] Like, we can’t design and build a lodge from, you know, the end of May to open in December.
[59:32] And both of them were like,
[59:34] you got to do it.
[59:36] I’m like, I can’t. And Travis looks at me. I don’t know if you know much about Travis, but he has a very intense look on his face when he wants it.
[59:42] And he, like, stuck his jaw out. He’s like, you’re gonna do it.
[59:46] You’re the guy to do it. And then Todd Jones was like, you gotta do it, man. You guys have accomplished so much. You can’t quit right now. And we dug in, and my.
[59:54] My local contractor, Terry Maglio, an amazing guy.
[59:57] Me and everybody, we’ve. This whole town was like,
[01:00:01] save Bald Face. And we ended up building that lodge that you stayed in. And we got it open in time to host the first Supernatural. Travis’s groundbreaking contest. And tgr, we filmed that.
[01:00:12] We filmed that part. I just wouldn’t let him film the collapsed lodge when he was up there.
[01:00:17] Put them all up in the cabins and, like, we made hamburgers on a barbecue every night, and we did it, and we got that thing built, and it’s still there today.
[01:00:25] So,
[01:00:26] you know, that’s the. That’s the story up to, you know, where the lodge is now, except for if I go back. And you were talking about mentors. Back when Craig was around, he brought me over to Island Lake to see how the operation worked.
[01:00:37] And while I was over there, I met A guy named Dan Reiner, who was an investor at Island Lake and lives north of Spokane. And Dan Craig told me, he goes, I doubt Dan would ever invest with a guy like you, but he is one of the smartest guys I’ve ever met.
[01:00:49] And to be in relationship with him will make you a great businessman.
[01:00:54] You should call him all the time and talk to him about things.
[01:00:58] So I did, and Dan and I became really good friends. He was about 20 years older than me, had hit a bunch of home runs as an entrepreneur, a lovely guy.
[01:01:07] And funny enough, my grandpa’s name was Dan, my dad’s name is Dan,
[01:01:12] and my brother’s name is Dan. And then my mentor, his name was Dan.
[01:01:15] Kevin Choquette: That’s awesome.
[01:01:16] Jeff Pensiero: Dan was from Detroit, self made man, son of immigrants,
[01:01:20] did very, very well for himself, was a shrewd businessman and helped me with so much when it was like, oh, what’s a personal guarantee, you know, on loans?
[01:01:30] And when I was signing these deals with these partners, he was like, watch out for this and do it like this. He was just awesome.
[01:01:35] So one day he’s getting hit up to invest in a ski business and he invited me to come down and take a look at it. And we looked at it and, and he goes, it was the Summit Club down at Powder Mountain down there.
[01:01:46] Kevin Choquette: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:01:47] Jeff Pensiero: And we went and we looked and then he looked at me and we were having lunch up there. He goes, what do you think?
[01:01:52] And I was like, I don’t know, Dan. It seems, seems kind of pretentious and wonky for a guy like you. Like, these guys have.
[01:01:58] I’m sorry, I’m swearing. I’m like, these guys have tweed jackets with, with suede patches on the elbows.
[01:02:06] They’re wearing turtlenecks, man. It doesn’t seem like you. I, I don’t know.
[01:02:10] And he goes,
[01:02:11] why don’t I just take the money they’re asking me for and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll invest it with you. And I was like, oh, my God. So he said, you gotta go to all your partners, a hundred percent of your partners, and you gotta work a deal to buy them all out so that if you see them in the airport or they come up,
[01:02:26] they give you a big hug and they’re really happy.
[01:02:29] But if you tell them you’re gonna spend my money irresponsibly, I’m not gonna do it. He goes, you got one month. I was like, ****.
[01:02:37] And so I had to have some really hard conversations with some people I really love and really Supported me the whole time to negotiate a fair buyout, but not a penny more than fair,
[01:02:49] you know?
[01:02:50] Kevin Choquette: Yep.
[01:02:50] Jeff Pensiero: And I did it. And Dan became my partner.
[01:02:53] And Dan.
[01:02:55] It was like going and getting an MBA from the school of Dan Reiner. It was amazing. And he was very hard on me, to be clear.
[01:03:01] Kevin Choquette: This was right after the lodge collapse, or when’s this.
[01:03:04] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, this was shortly after the lodge collapse. This would have been 2017. He came in and negotiated, did that.
[01:03:09] Kevin Choquette: Okay.
[01:03:10] Jeff Pensiero: And then Dan became my partner in 2017,
[01:03:13] and his son Andy. And I just don’t have enough words for all my partners who are so great, like, in helping me build this thing. But ultimately, Dan became my single partner.
[01:03:23] We kept Olivia, Craig’s daughter, on. He had a little stake in the company. We let that stay,
[01:03:30] and we bought everybody out.
[01:03:32] And it was really hard, man, but it was really necessary as well. And then Dan started, like, helping us financially with some things, giving us some loans always.
[01:03:43] Dan won every time. I’ll tell you that.
[01:03:46] Dan won every time. But he put the money in when we needed it, but he won every time. But I won, too,
[01:03:53] because it helped us get it further down the line. We ended up having a really fair, awesome agreement between the two of us, because although what I didn’t realize at the time was I went from being majority owner of the company to becoming minority owner in the company when he consolidated all the partners.
[01:04:09] And I didn’t really realize how stupid that was till a few years later and how shrewd he was to do it. And I brought it up with him, and he was like, I’m never letting you have.
[01:04:19] I don’t own anything that. I’m not the majority owner. That’s how it works. You want to swim with the big fishes? That’s how it works. I’m never giving that up.
[01:04:27] But we ended up with a really, really fair negotiation because he loved being I. Dan loves me and my family. He loved my story. He loves my kids. Love, love, love.
[01:04:38] True love.
[01:04:39] And we ended up with a really fair agreement on how we share free cash flow in the company. So while I’m not an owner, I’m very fairly compensated.
[01:04:50] Kevin Choquette: That’s. That works.
[01:04:50] Jeff Pensiero: Which is awesome. And he’s like, hey, man,
[01:04:52] if your kids need to go to college, one of your kids gets into Harvard, we’re taking care of it. Don’t worry. You get sick, your wife gets sick, we’re taking care of it.
[01:05:00] It’s priority for the company. It’s priority for your partner.
[01:05:03] You’ve done a great job,
[01:05:04] don’t worry about it. The equity part, you’ll always be taken care of. So we wrote it out, and I learned a lot in that process as well.
[01:05:12] Dan passed away last year in September,
[01:05:16] and it was re. It’s been really hard. I really miss him as my mentor. And you can’t just pick another mentor. And slowly. I’ve been losing a lot of people in my life in my 50s who I’ve really leaned on.
[01:05:29] And now I’m also realizing I got a lot of people that are leaning on me for goodness.
[01:05:34] And it’s been this really cool transition over the last year of me learning how to help other people that are in the positions I was in, coming up and share what I’ve learned with them.
[01:05:44] And I really am coming into a new version of myself right now, thanks to guys like Henry and Rob and Dan and Eric Ladd and Terry Magaly. I mean, I have a list, I really do, of these people who have helped me along the way.
[01:06:00] Kevin Choquette: Navigating, navigating all that. On the capital side,
[01:06:03] I have to imagine that there’s more than a handful of gifted athletes who love the outdoors and love the backcountry, who are also savvy, if not shrewd, businessmen who might have approached you with deals that were less than advantageous.
[01:06:22] I wonder what you’ve had to avoid to. To get here because I. There had to been some landmines that people were putting around you as far as like,
[01:06:31] options for financing that may not have played out well. I mean, you’ve made it through, which is impressive. This is not easy, like 25 years of bootstrapping something to actually have an iconic, you know, thriving enterprise with.
[01:06:44] With 16 or 14 weeks of operating revenue.
[01:06:48] Jeff Pensiero: And we bought another operation and we’ve scaled that up and we’re getting ready to start build this summer. We’re starting to build a lodge and,
[01:06:54] and stuff over there too.
[01:06:55] So we’re gonna.
[01:06:57] Yeah, we’re gonna build another lodge over at Valhalla. We’ve scaled that from kind of 2 cats running maybe 8 to 10 weeks to 3 cats running 14 weeks as a day operation.
[01:07:06] And we’re going to really improve that day operation side significantly this year. And then we’re going to start building a lodge.
[01:07:13] It’s gonna be different than Bald Face, but yeah, we’re.
[01:07:16] We’re working on the next one pretty full time right now. And Bald Face has got some great managers in there. And I’m learning how to just say less and less, allow great people to do their jobs.
[01:07:25] Up there. And it’s a little heartbreaking because they. It’s like being a dad, you know, this is my first child or me and Paula’s first child. And. And, you know, our actual first child, Estelle, is 22 now, bald face is 26.
[01:07:39] And they get to the point where they just. You don’t.
[01:07:42] Kevin Choquette: They don’t need you.
[01:07:43] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah. And that’s.
[01:07:44] That’s a. It should be a great feeling, but it is a bit melancholy because I. I love it, you know, but as I step away from bald face, I’m so proud of.
[01:07:53] I mean, I got employees that have been there 20 plus years, and they’re the ones that are running it, and they should be running it, you know, and it’s. It’s really cool.
[01:08:02] Kevin Choquette: But what about those capital pitfalls or potential pitfalls? I mean, did you have people try to ensnare you with, like, hey, I’ll make you a loan for 22% interest.
[01:08:10] Jeff Pensiero: And all the time.
[01:08:12] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:08:13] Jeff Pensiero: Luckily, I had Dan and Henry just definitely, you know, keeping me real.
[01:08:17] And I,
[01:08:21] like, I reinvested everything I ever made into bald face so that I didn’t step in any of those bear traps.
[01:08:30] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:08:31] Jeff Pensiero: And I think as an entrepreneur,
[01:08:33] if you’re not willing to go all in, and I mean, like, all in,
[01:08:38] you know, you don’t. You’re not a real entrepreneur.
[01:08:41] So if you’re taking those deals,
[01:08:44] you’re taking them at your own demise. And I think I.
[01:08:47] I’ve read enough and I’m savvy enough through my grind,
[01:08:52] coming from Cleveland, being a guy who repairs people’s gutters, you know what I mean? Like, coming up as a snowboarder, like,
[01:08:59] you know, I’ll hear anything out. But I. Dude, I have invested wisely in my own circle. I. One of my mentors is a guy named Joe Hussain, who started Intrawest over in Whistler.
[01:09:12] Kevin Choquette: Yep.
[01:09:13] Jeff Pensiero: Joe is a Xerox copy machine repairman. You should get him on your podcast sometime. He is phenomenal human being. His story is unreal. And he told me one time because I was like, oh, I got this great deal and I could buy this lodge.
[01:09:25] And. And.
[01:09:26] And Joe was like, listen, man, as you get successful,
[01:09:30] you gotta stop riding the bus and you get off and you sit at the bus stop and there’s just a bus that comes by every five minutes.
[01:09:39] Don’t jump on the first bus that comes by and not look at the destination. Whatever he goes, let a few buses go by and then wait for the buses going where you want it to go.
[01:09:49] But don’t just be jumping on buses all the time. He’s like, that’s not being an entrepreneur, you know?
[01:09:54] And I, I remember these little things that my, my mentors have taught me over the years,
[01:10:00] and they’re, they’re really valid, man. The guys who make it, make it for a reason. And, and usually they say a lot with a few words. And if you’re,
[01:10:08] if you’re not too egotistical, you get the opportunity to hear those things. Because while I’m on a podcast and I’m sitting here talking about myself, and it feels quite good to just blah out,
[01:10:21] my strategy is I’m surrounded by the smartest people in the world with my customers,
[01:10:26] and I don’t really want to tell my story over and over again. I want to ask them their stories.
[01:10:33] And I sit at that bar and I sit in that cat, and I am just a sponge.
[01:10:39] I learn so many cool stories from so many cool people. And obviously at Bald Face, you’re the best version of yourself.
[01:10:46] Kevin Choquette: Yep.
[01:10:47] Jeff Pensiero: And it’s like, for me, I just, that’s my favorite part. I’ve ridden more powder than most people will ever even see in their life.
[01:10:54] But I sit at that bar,
[01:10:56] I sit in that cat, and every trip, I, I get a new chapter to relish, you know, it’s so cool.
[01:11:06] Kevin Choquette: That’s an incredible resource,
[01:11:08] the, the comment you made on All In. Right.
[01:11:11] And, and I, it’s funny because there’s another huge podcast called all in, and I,
[01:11:16] I wonder.
[01:11:17] Nature, nurture,
[01:11:20] genetics. Like,
[01:11:21] what do you think it is that makes some people like, it’s, it’s an inevitability. It’s, it’s a binary thing. Like, I don’t know you well, but, like, I can get from you that, like, you’re all in.
[01:11:36] And you probably have been all in for maybe save the, the event with Craig. You’ve probably been all in all the time. Like, why do you think some people can portray that?
[01:11:47] Almost like they don’t have the option. And then there’s so many other people that,
[01:11:51] well,
[01:11:52] they’ll aspire to it, but when, like, push comes to shove, they’re out.
[01:11:56] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, I,
[01:11:57] It’s a great question. I would put,
[01:12:01] I would put it like this. Like when I went all in and I was like, mortgaging, mortgaging, mortgaging, selling everything I own, doing all this stuff.
[01:12:09] Think of it like I tied a cinder block around my neck,
[01:12:14] jumped in off a two story pier, and on the way into the water said, I think this is a great time to learn how to swim.
[01:12:21] So I spent 20 years bouncing off the bottom and getting just high enough to get a sip of air and then going back down.
[01:12:29] And over the course of time, I’ve learned I didn’t need to swim. I needed to learn how to untie knots underwater.
[01:12:36] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:12:37] Jeff Pensiero: So I think all in can also mean you’re oblivious to what you’re getting yourself into, and you’re just too stubborn to drown.
[01:12:47] And that’s not admirable or that’s not a testament to my character. That’s a testament to, like,
[01:12:54] I just didn’t want to drown.
[01:12:56] You know,
[01:12:58] I don’t believe in reincarnation enough to just give up. You know what I mean?
[01:13:02] So there’s that side, and then the other side is like.
[01:13:07] I grew up in Cleveland, and my parents are amazingly off. Awesome, awesome people. I’ve got brothers and sisters, and they went through a lot of struggles,
[01:13:15] you know, to get to where they’re at or where they were at.
[01:13:18] And I saw it.
[01:13:20] And growing up in CLEVELAND in the 80s, it was like a pretty.
[01:13:23] We lived suburbia full on. My dad was great. We didn’t grow up, like, you know, wanting for a lot,
[01:13:31] but, man, there was a lot of hard times in that era.
[01:13:34] And I got out and I begged my dad to leave, and I got to go to this school called Proctor in New Hampshire instead of going to college. And then I had to go to college after that.
[01:13:43] And I think, just like, I learned how to fight with that Midwestern work ethic that just. Honestly, I don’t. I can see it a mile away,
[01:13:53] but it’s less and less all the time.
[01:13:57] And I think when you. When you’re from a place like Cleveland and you honestly believe that the. The Browns are going to win the super bowl every year, Every year,
[01:14:05] and they never do.
[01:14:07] And you honestly think the Indians are going to take it, and then the Cubs beat them, and it’s just like time after time after time again. Cleveland is the place where Lucy pulls the football out from underneath.
[01:14:18] You just keep doing it. It’s in. It’s something about all the heavy metals in the water or something. I don’t know. Acid rain got us.
[01:14:27] But I respect that Midwestern grind, and I don’t. There’s not a lot of places that you see it, maybe like, Ukraine or something. It’s weird.
[01:14:36] So I think a combination of those two things. I just got in over my head.
[01:14:40] I got in because I loved Paula.
[01:14:42] This story is a love story first and foremost,
[01:14:46] and I just love her. So much. And I loved her from the second that I met her. And I.
[01:14:51] I would do. I would cut off my leg to keep chasing her. Even after we. This is like our 29th year together.
[01:14:57] I still am that same thing. I really believe in it.
[01:15:01] So I believe that when you’re in love with someone and you’re in love with a person,
[01:15:05] it just.
[01:15:06] The worst case scenario is I got Paula. I lose everything tomorrow. I still got the girl of my dreams, and she loves me, and I love her. It’s amazing.
[01:15:13] Kevin Choquette: And so this was a. This was an opportunity to create a thing for you two to be together in the place that she called home.
[01:15:23] Jeff Pensiero: Yep. Hundred percent.
[01:15:25] That’s. That’s the secret sauce. I think that’s awesome. And it has not been easy, a bald face. And it has not been easy in my marriage either.
[01:15:34] Marriage is hard.
[01:15:35] And along the same lines, a lot of people throw in the towel,
[01:15:39] but we never threw in the towel. You know, we.
[01:15:43] We’ve made it,
[01:15:45] and it’s.
[01:15:46] It.
[01:15:47] How do you explain that to someone who’s going through a divorce? I understand how hard that is, and I get it. I totally get it. There’s no judgment. I just have never quit.
[01:15:56] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:15:56] Jeff Pensiero: I can’t tell you how to tell someone else how to do that. It’s just. I didn’t do it. We didn’t do it. And it’s the same with the business.
[01:16:03] Kevin Choquette: But let’s talk a little bit about the team.
[01:16:07] My wife,
[01:16:09] I’ve been able to find a little bit more success in my career, has sort of upgraded our hospitality options. We, you know, we’ll end up at nice hotels, and I always feel welcome, but,
[01:16:26] like, let’s just take a Ritz Carlton.
[01:16:28] Cool. It’s. It’s really not my vibe.
[01:16:31] I appreciate it. I appreciate the execution and the training and the culture and the experience of being in those places and how consistent it is across the flag and all that sort of stuff.
[01:16:41] But it’s. It’s not like I’m not like, love the Ritz Carlton,
[01:16:45] but I go to bald face.
[01:16:47] And I feel like for a boutique operation,
[01:16:52] the consistency of the experience from all of the staff in whatever sort of interaction you have,
[01:17:02] for some reason, just way more grounded and kind of authentic. I don’t know if that’s because I’m just super stoked because I’ve been riding POW all day,
[01:17:09] but I feel like you guys have got. I mean, I. I found myself really authentically thanking the people who were serving me soup at the end of the bar.
[01:17:19] Jeff Pensiero: The Soup is. The soup is really good up there.
[01:17:22] Kevin Choquette: Yeah, but, like, how do you think about that part of the experience? I don’t think it’s a mistake. In fact, I look at the entirety of that lodge, and you can see year after year, the little evolutionary things that, you know, like.
[01:17:36] Like actually the end of the bar where the soup is served. I bet when you first built that lodge, you didn’t have the little 90,
[01:17:42] you know, return there with the. Where the soup and the coffee leaves. But after a while, you’re like, you know, we need. Let’s build this thing on the end. And you can see that kind of all over the place.
[01:17:50] But. But the people and, if you will, the culture and the experience of your team did. I mean,
[01:18:00] it’s part of what makes that experience exceptional.
[01:18:04] How do you think about recruiting people,
[01:18:06] finding the right people, building that vibe, preserving that vibe?
[01:18:12] Jeff Pensiero: I mean,
[01:18:13] the first part is I didn’t always do it right,
[01:18:16] you know, Like,
[01:18:18] I have really high standards and a really clear vision of what I want up there.
[01:18:23] And in the early days, we, like, partied a lot up there,
[01:18:28] and,
[01:18:29] you know, alcohol was a big part of the equation, and, like, getting really, really drunk in the evenings and letting the customers get really drunk. And my. My philosophy was like, what a great place.
[01:18:38] Like,
[01:18:39] you’re not driving drunk, you’re not cheating on your wife. Nobody’s doing anything they really regret. What a great place to just dive in and, you know,
[01:18:46] shotgun beers and, like, all that stuff. And trust me, that stuff still happens up there.
[01:18:50] But there was kind of a moment where I was like, this.
[01:18:56] This really isn’t good for my.
[01:18:57] My team, my staff.
[01:18:59] You know, like, once you’ve hired people for five years and you realize these are the guys who could drink really hard and they’re doing it every night, these are the guys who aren’t, and you see the cumulative effect.
[01:19:07] And I saw it on myself.
[01:19:09] I kind of had to make some changes to the way that I really thought about the staff and. And the people, because we live in this small town together. And,
[01:19:17] you know, first, Nelson is just an incredible town. It attracts incredible people, so we’re hiring from a great pool.
[01:19:24] But second,
[01:19:25] something changed Year seven or eight, where I was like,
[01:19:32] I kind of stopped thinking of myself as the boss and started to think of them as the boss,
[01:19:37] you know, And I.
[01:19:40] I remember firing a couple people because they were doing some things that was, like, just not okay with me. And I was kind of a **** firing them. You know,
[01:19:48] it wasn’t like a Real good feeling. And I’d walk around town, and I’d, like, go to the other side of the street. When I saw these people that I let go,
[01:19:56] and it wasn’t because they did something wrong. It was because of the way that I ended the relationship. So I. I made a conscious change. When I hire people now,
[01:20:05] and when I have to have hard talks,
[01:20:07] I remind them, like, my commitment to you is that.
[01:20:12] And I learned this from John at Oso Negro, that coffee shop. But I’m like,
[01:20:17] I know these relationships are gonna end.
[01:20:21] This is a backcountry ski lodge.
[01:20:23] Some will carry on for a very long time, but they’re all gonna end.
[01:20:28] And the day it ends,
[01:20:30] I’m committed to ending it really good.
[01:20:33] So if you want to go to school after working at Bald Face, I’m going to help you get to school. I’ll help you with your first month’s rent. If you’re having a baby, I’m there to help you.
[01:20:41] I’ll hold that **** baby. I love babies. You know what I mean? Like,
[01:20:44] I want them to know that when the day comes, it’s going to be a good day. It’s not going to be a super sad day. Let’s make it a great day.
[01:20:52] And having that philosophy and articulating that philosophy in the hiring,
[01:20:56] as we move through things, when things get really sticky, I’ll say it’s time for us to end the relationship. How do we end it really good? What do I have to do to end it good?
[01:21:05] And I think them knowing that I’m really committed to that. We really now, as our staff is aging, I’m, like, starting to talk to the guides about their retirement plans.
[01:21:16] And for a lot of guys that work, like carpentry in the summer and their guides in the winter,
[01:21:21] their.
[01:21:22] Their plan is to work till the day they die.
[01:21:24] And with Alex, our cfo, we’ve been saying, like, why don’t we start doing some matching contributions to your retirement fund? And they’re like, I don’t have a retirement fund. And we’re like, cool, let’s get you set up with the retirement fund.
[01:21:35] Let’s get you onto wealth simple so you can manage your own fund or have it managed. And we’ve really been trying hard to encourage our staff to start preparing for what happens after Bald Face.
[01:21:46] And I think that’s a little bit of a rarity in the heli and cat world.
[01:21:51] And I think word starts getting out that we’re. We’re really trying, and other operations are calling us to Ask us how we’re doing that. And I’m really.
[01:21:58] I really shared as much as I can. We just hosted a whole thing with helicat and guides because I’m like,
[01:22:05] when I lived through financial scarcity,
[01:22:08] it was terrifying.
[01:22:10] You know, like, it’s really hard, and you take stress and people talk about politics and relationships and all these things, but at the end of the day,
[01:22:20] if you’re worried about how you’re feeding your kids or paying your mortgage or all these things, that’s a stress that is so awful,
[01:22:28] you know? And I’m really trying to alleviate that stress with my staff as much as I humanly can.
[01:22:34] And I think if more employers were to take the time to be like,
[01:22:38] I mean,
[01:22:39] trust me, I did not make money on this business for the first 17 years. And I paid them all before I paid myself. I was taking loans to pay in them with my name on them.
[01:22:48] Right.
[01:22:49] I know what it is. And when it’s time for me to come up, which has been happening in the last two, three years,
[01:22:55] I’m like, wow, I’m saving for my own retirement. This feels really good. My kids are getting college age. I’m going to be able to send them to college. Like, you know, all these things feel great for me,
[01:23:03] but I know that I’ve.
[01:23:06] I’m kind of the caboose of that train.
[01:23:08] And I think that’s.
[01:23:10] That’s what it is to run a successful business, is to make sure your staff is doing good first and then you’re doing good because of that, not the other way around,
[01:23:18] you know, for sure.
[01:23:20] Kevin Choquette: Yeah. And what about the vibe, though? Is that accidental or am I misreading it?
[01:23:24] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, I mean, there’s. I have certain rules up there. Right. Like, obviously, the first rule is you’re never allowed to play Journey in the lodge. That’s rule number one.
[01:23:32] Yeah.
[01:23:33] So no Journey. You know, the second rule is we don’t lie to each other up there. You tell the hard truth the first time.
[01:23:41] If you. If you screw up, just come and tell us. You screw up, then we move ahead.
[01:23:45] We just don’t play games with things up there. We’re all very honest with each other. Somebody’s ******* you off, you go up to them and you’re like, you know, you’re leaving the bathroom a mess every time, and I got to use it after.
[01:23:56] You got to go clean it. Go talk to the person. Don’t talk to the manager about stuff like that. See if you can resolve it yourself.
[01:24:03] Because we’re a family. Up there. Like, we literally share the same toilets every day. You know, it’s like if you get those little things right with the staff,
[01:24:12] you know,
[01:24:13] and you. We. We. We rehearse that stuff. We practice it, we script it in the training.
[01:24:19] You know,
[01:24:21] we’re just good to each other. And when somebody’s not good, I get rid of them really fast.
[01:24:25] Kevin Choquette: And was that the third rule, which is just have the hard conversation, like, no journey, don’t lie. And what was number three?
[01:24:32] Jeff Pensiero: You know, there’s some. There’s some rules about relationships at the lodge and about choices that people make that I don’t know that I want to articulate on a podcast.
[01:24:41] Kevin Choquette: Fair enough. Fair enough.
[01:24:42] Jeff Pensiero: There’s some rules about that. The one rule is summed up as this. If it’s happening in the laundry room at midnight, that’s not love.
[01:24:52] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:24:52] Jeff Pensiero: So, yeah, go to town,
[01:24:54] you know, let it simmer. Go on a nice date in town.
[01:24:58] Have your fling.
[01:24:59] But, you know, the lodge is not for that. You know, I want all the girls to feel really safe up there.
[01:25:05] I want everyone to feel like brother and sister up there. And I think what you’re saying is an articulation of that.
[01:25:11] There’s much more a vibe that the staff is having a great time up there doing their work, and that they’re all well supported and you’re joining in. They’re not really there trying to serve you and.
[01:25:21] And put on airs, like the Ritz Carlton. You’re showing up and you’re like, I can’t believe I’m a part of this whole vibe,
[01:25:26] you know? Yes. So I’m making sure that there’s plenty of soup for the staff.
[01:25:32] You know, when we do staff meals, a lot of times the customers. I shouldn’t be saying this on the podcast, but they’re like, like, wait, what are you guys eating on the staff field tonight?
[01:25:41] You know,
[01:25:42] we just can’t eat that super rich, huge food that you guys eat every night.
[01:25:46] So we get, like, these crazy, awesome. I have a second chef up there that just cooks for the staff.
[01:25:51] Kevin Choquette: Oh, wow, that’s cool.
[01:25:52] Jeff Pensiero: And the food is phenomenal, you know, and we do fun things. Like sometimes the staff gets to go into the kitchen and help prepare, and you’re eating what the massage therapist’s mom used to make all the time.
[01:26:02] You know, Collins mom’s lasagna is one of the most popular things, you know, like,
[01:26:06] so, you know, we try to really foster that, and we try to look at it like if the staff is.
[01:26:12] They work seven days on seven days off. And the idea is on your last day, you should be looking forward to going to town, going to Whitewater, shredding, shopping for your friends, seeing your girl, whatever it is.
[01:26:22] But on day seven in town, you should be really stoked to get on that helicopter, go back up to the lodge and tell everyone what you did on your days off and this and that.
[01:26:30] And I think we accomplished that.
[01:26:32] And that makes it really fun for the guests to come up, you know.
[01:26:35] Kevin Choquette: Yeah,
[01:26:36] you, you’ve put out a bunch of names. I haven’t kept track of all of them, but one of them was the gentleman who said, hey, like you gotta get off the bus.
[01:26:43] And then why don’t you just stand and watch the buses come before you.
[01:26:46] Jeff Pensiero: Joe, before you hop. Joe Hussein legend.
[01:26:48] Kevin Choquette: Oh, the Intro west guy.
[01:26:49] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, yeah.
[01:26:50] Kevin Choquette: All right, I will reach out to them. I know a bit of the company story there, but that ties into managing success. Right. And it’s a Tim Ferriss podcast I always draw on because it’s.
[01:27:00] First heard this analogy, I think through him, which is, you know, you’re, you’re out on a desert island, you’re the, you’re the 26 year old, hey, I’ve, I’ve been a distributor of snowboards, I have some brand affiliations, I’m triple levered on my house.
[01:27:13] And you’re putting messages in the glass bottles and you’re sending them out from your, your,
[01:27:17] you know,
[01:27:19] deserted desert island, hoping to get some feedback back. And then at some point the tide turns and there’s a ton of messages coming in and there’s a lot of opportunity because you’ve hit an inflection point and it’s, you actually mentioned it.
[01:27:34] Right. And you’re starting to feel like maybe you, you’re, you are becoming the mentor to a bunch of other people.
[01:27:39] But how have you managed that transition from,
[01:27:42] you know, just scrapping by to now, I suspect. Hey, Jeff, we’d like to get you involved in this. Hey Jeff, can I get you in that? Hey Jeff, can I get you in that?
[01:27:51] And, and it might be too much. Too many opportunities, too many invitations.
[01:27:56] Jeff Pensiero: Were you at my house this morning for breakfast?
[01:27:59] This is literally what Paul and I were talking about because I’m going over to Whistler next week to go look at a cool opportunity or not. I don’t know.
[01:28:06] I,
[01:28:10] you know, you were talking about entrepreneurialism earlier and, and what is it? And I.
[01:28:16] So Paul is a therapist and she likes to throw a lot of diagnoses around that I need to look up on Google afterwards.
[01:28:24] And I think entrepreneurialism could be classified as a mental illness. Like autism is a mental illness, but it’s not. It’s a. It’s a superpower.
[01:28:35] And I believe deep down inside that I just love the grind. I love read now. I love looking at P&L’s, balance sheets and income statements. I love looking for ways to improve systems.
[01:28:49] I used to read a lot of fiction. I read all history, and I read a lot of business books that right now, like I said, sitting at the bar, I love grinding on ideas with entrepreneurs.
[01:29:00] So I’m honored when my phone rings and I get to talk to somebody about an idea they have. I have a guy who’s my old boss who’s selling ice. Now he’s got an ice company.
[01:29:10] It is the most interesting business plan I’ve read.
[01:29:14] And. And it’s like, so cool to see that people are like, reimagining like ice, you know, still not. Not ice like America, you know,
[01:29:24] Los Angeles ice. I mean, like the cold. Right, right, right. Cube, you put in a scotch. But I just love it. I love it. It’s. I’m honored by it. I’m not overwhelmed at all.
[01:29:35] I think it’s so cool. And I got no problem saying no to things.
[01:29:39] But usually,
[01:29:40] much like saying it’s the end of the relationship, how do we end it? Well, I don’t say no and make anybody feel bad about it. I say no. It’s not right for me right now.
[01:29:49] Maybe these are the three things I’d want to see,
[01:29:51] you know,
[01:29:54] But I’m not quite to the point where I’m liquid enough to start investing in all sorts of things.
[01:30:00] I’m at the point where I’m topping up my retirement, getting my kids into college still, hey, believe it or not, I’m still paying off mortgages right now. I’m not quite in the no mortgage zone, but I’m close.
[01:30:11] I’ll get.
[01:30:12] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:30:13] Jeff Pensiero: You know, and I think as I. I’m 56 now. I started this when I was 26,
[01:30:18] and I think as I reach 60, my personal plan is to start pulling back from the day to day and put myself in a position where I can find the next version of me at that age and invest and mentor and enjoy what I got to see Dan and Henry doing for me.
[01:30:36] And I really am looking forward to.
[01:30:39] Kevin Choquette: That part of my life,
[01:30:41] either through yourself or through your clientele, because these places self select into a pretty interesting cross section. It’s funny,
[01:30:52] I mean, I grew up in Colorado and The fact that I’m able to do these things now is kind of awesome because I remember I have 20 bucks for the week or something and I’m just going to drive up to the ski area and ski whatever’s there.
[01:31:08] So to be able to sort of pony up for the tuition, if you will,
[01:31:12] to get to a bald face or any of those other places, you tend to be with a certain kind of customer who’s got some discretionary capital and they’re not going to sweat that kind of admission ticket to go have three or four days of fun,
[01:31:25] which is to say they’re generally wealthy.
[01:31:28] I wonder how you think about wealth and its utility.
[01:31:33] I totally relate to what you’re saying when you’re under pressure. And it’s literally paycheck to paycheck, like, I need to make enough to eat and maybe I can pay rent.
[01:31:43] I’ve been on that side of the equation as well. But there’s a certain point where you break over and maybe it’s just a little bit of leftover.
[01:31:52] Maybe it’s more. And certainly your clients, some of them have a lot more leftover.
[01:31:57] What do you think the utility of wealth is? And I know that’s a pretty esoteric.
[01:32:01] Jeff Pensiero: Question, but it’s a great question.
[01:32:06] Okay, I have two, two thoughts. One is I went from a guy who had losses every year to write off against any of my income, so tax wasn’t really a problem,
[01:32:18] to being a guy who’s like,
[01:32:20] what?
[01:32:21] Why am I paying so much taxes every year? This is what happened in the last, like three years for me. And I’ve had to come up with a tax strategy and the things that people who are enjoying wealth start to do.
[01:32:32] This is where I’m at in my life right now. And it’s really eye opening and really kind of sad, you know,
[01:32:39] to work as hard as I’ve worked. And then Canada just switched Capital gains to 68.5% and like my thought of exiting by selling bald face just evaporated. Right.
[01:32:55] I pay over 50% income tax now.
[01:32:59] And,
[01:33:01] you know, you really think about it. I’ve put my entire life into this thing and I’ve enjoyed the hard times, I’ve enjoyed the good times.
[01:33:08] But in the realm of fairness, it starts getting to feel like I don’t want to become a conservative. I’m like an absolute love child hippie, but like,
[01:33:16] stop taking all my money,
[01:33:18] you know,
[01:33:20] and.
[01:33:20] And I worked hard to get to where I’m at and I’m good to my staff and I.
[01:33:25] It Just starts to feel punitive. Like, they just tax success. So I understand the frustration that a lot of wealthy people feel when people who aren’t maybe digging in as deep or who gave up or whatever say, like, oh, tax the rich.
[01:33:37] Tax the rich.
[01:33:39] Because I look at the government and I’m like, learn how to run a business.
[01:33:42] Kevin Choquette: Like, totally.
[01:33:43] Jeff Pensiero: Like, what is wrong with you guys? Like, I’m not your solution.
[01:33:47] Spend what you earn every year. You run in a deficit, and you point your finger at everyone else like, you’re the problem, not me.
[01:33:53] So there’s that.
[01:33:54] But then on the other side, you’re right. I do have some customers that have enjoyed generational wealth and,
[01:34:00] and big, big numbers. And,
[01:34:02] and I wonder, like,
[01:34:04] would it not be fair to say, like, hey,
[01:34:07] you’re making, you know, you’ve made.
[01:34:10] You pick the number $10 billion.
[01:34:13] That’s it.
[01:34:14] You get to wear a toga.
[01:34:16] You, you get, you get a better seat at every restaurant. You know, like, you go speak at colleges.
[01:34:22] But you don’t get to make any more than that. There’s an end.
[01:34:26] That’s it. Like, you can only make that much money. And after that,
[01:34:29] you just, Your money’s going back to helping people that haven’t had a chance to make that money. You’re, you, you’ve, you know, generational wealth causes, like, more problems than it probably alleviates.
[01:34:39] Maybe there’s a number, and it’s like, that’s the end. And if that makes me a communist or a socialist or whatever awful word people are using, fair enough. I also was like,
[01:34:47] why can’t we just come up with, like, a flat tax for everybody?
[01:34:50] Kevin Choquette: Totally.
[01:34:51] Jeff Pensiero: And if, if you’re under $100,000 a year and it’s really hard, great. You don’t have to pay taxes, you know, but once you make over a certain amount, everybody pays the same amount.
[01:34:59] And then look at government and be like, that’s what you get.
[01:35:02] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:35:02] Jeff Pensiero: You know, like, yeah, I. And so as I’m getting wealthier, these are thoughts that definitely the younger version of myself would not have agreed with.
[01:35:10] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:35:11] Jeff Pensiero: And I listened to a really great Charlie Munger podcast where he was on that. Acquired. I recommend it to everybody. And I need to listen. I was in my car, but he had a one liner in there about this.
[01:35:25] And you know, Charlie Munger’s part of Berkshire.
[01:35:29] He’s just an amazing guy. And he didn’t do a lot of podcasts or anything. And this one is one hour long. They did a great job.
[01:35:35] And he says something about,
[01:35:38] you Know, when you’re young, you just struggle to understand the rules.
[01:35:42] When you’re old and you make it, you just understand how to make the rules work for you.
[01:35:49] And I think I’m in that part where I’m like, I’m accepting that, you know, the tax system seems unfair now that I’m making money and all these things. But what I used to think of, like, they should close all those loopholes are still there.
[01:36:01] So it’s like, all right, maybe I got to start another business so that I can have losses to offset the gains I’m making. You know, you got to play.
[01:36:08] So that’s kind of where I’m at. And I guess that’s where a lot of real estate transactions come from and a lot of investments come from. And that’s how people invest in companies like Bald Face that are willing to lose money for a bunch of years because they got to write off their.
[01:36:21] Their.
[01:36:22] Kevin Choquette: Their losses.
[01:36:23] Jeff Pensiero: Their losses against their gains in other companies. So, you know, I’m at that point now.
[01:36:29] Kevin Choquette: You strike me as a pretty soulful person. It’s coming across just. Just here in terms of, like, you know, picking up signals and treating people well and,
[01:36:38] you know, holding somebody’s baby and trying to make sure they can get into college or, you know, supporting them through childbirth or all of those things.
[01:36:46] I wonder.
[01:36:47] Jeff Pensiero: I would be a doula if I could redo it. That moment when babies come out, it’s like a great.
[01:36:52] You know what I mean? Like, in that room,
[01:36:55] there’s a drug that. I don’t know what that is, but.
[01:36:57] Kevin Choquette: My wife thinks I was crazy. Or. I mean, she still thinks I’m crazy, but the day our first was born, which is actually yesterday, seven days, seven years ago that day, literally, I’m holding her.
[01:37:09] I was like, we have to do this again.
[01:37:10] Jeff Pensiero: She’s like, you’re great. Yeah, it’s good. I’m with you. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:37:16] Kevin Choquette: But on the, you know, like, your mindset, I wonder, on the daily side, in terms of habits, rituals, routines, practices,
[01:37:25] do you have anything to cultivate a state of readiness or mindfulness or. Or just, like, habits and routines that. That you think are valuable in helping you, you know, get through the battle?
[01:37:37] Jeff Pensiero: Well, this would be the part of the podcast. I’m really glad that Paula never listens to the podcast that I do, because she’d be like, you’re so full of. But I would say, like,
[01:37:50] I think it’s.
[01:37:51] I. I wake up,
[01:37:53] and I try to just make some space in my mind and not let it flood you know, with all the things coming up, I don’t look at my calendar when I wake up or anything.
[01:38:05] I really enjoy a good espresso,
[01:38:09] you know,
[01:38:10] like, it’s one of the things at the lodge, you know, Like,
[01:38:13] I.
[01:38:14] I just. I need that hit in the morning when I fish. I bring an espresso machine. Like, I’m like, okay,
[01:38:21] we started off right. And when I feel that, like, sweat come on the corner of my brows and I’m like feeling the.
[01:38:27] The espresso come on, I breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth. I’m not like, looking at my phone while I’m drinking my espresso. I’m like in the espresso meditation.
[01:38:37] You know what I mean? Yeah. And I’m so grateful in that moment that I’m at a point in my life where I’m not rushing out the door. I didn’t manage myself.
[01:38:46] Right, whatever. I have 15, 20 minutes every morning to enjoy that first espresso.
[01:38:53] And that’s religion to me. And then midday, I have another hack.
[01:38:59] I like to call it the Napuccino. I do it at the lodge.
[01:39:03] So, like two o’, clock, because I’m getting older, right? And I’m pretty active. So like two o’, clock,
[01:39:08] if I’m feeling a little draggy, I smash a double no cream double espresso. I got a green couch. I lay down on that green couch, I fall asleep. Twenty minutes later, I wake up ready to take on the world.
[01:39:22] Kevin Choquette: Oh, you take the double shot, then take the nap.
[01:39:24] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, Napuccino,
[01:39:26] solid. The espresso wakes me up.
[01:39:29] So those are little routines. And then Paula got me into breathing. I do breathing and meditation. I can’t do it every day or I won’t stay consistent. But I’d say probably 10 to 15 days a month, I do about a 30 minute guided meditation that involves a lot of breath holding.
[01:39:47] So I’ll hold my breath for up to three and a half minutes while I’m doing these meditations. And God, it’s like medicine. It’s awesome.
[01:39:55] Kevin Choquette: Is that the. There’s a lot of different modalities. Wim Hof got pretty popular.
[01:40:00] Jeff Pensiero: It’s kind of like Wim Hof, but the guy I use, his name is Dirk Terpsin and he’s a Swedish guy and he’s got a really funny accent and he’s really like, kind about everything, you know?
[01:40:10] And he just leads you through this meditation that is just so good. And he says things like,
[01:40:17] you can do it because you are the change that you Want to become.
[01:40:21] You’re like, oh, thanks, Dirk. I am the change. It’s great.
[01:40:26] I love Dirt Terpsig. But yeah, I mean, whatever it is, man, I can do it without a recording on or anything. But I think taking those moments when you feel you have those moments are just like so good.
[01:40:37] Kevin Choquette: So. So what do you see?
[01:40:39] And thank you for that. I love all of those things. And I’m very similar on meditation. I’d like to do it daily, but it doesn’t happen.
[01:40:47] Sam Harris is my go to guy. The waking up. Yeah, it’s great.
[01:40:53] You just mentioned Valhalla’s sort of potentially bald face 2.0. You’re building a lodge up there. What’s on the horizon? What’s coming?
[01:41:01] Jeff Pensiero: So we just bought two lots over there. We just bought three acres at the bottom and then a fourplex.
[01:41:07] We’re building a cat barn on those. That is also going to serve as a greeting out in the valley.
[01:41:13] And then some staff will live in that fourplex. We’re going to do breakfast, sandwiches, lunches and soup and bread at the end of the day over there. That’ll be a big upgrade this year.
[01:41:23] And then we have a approved lodge site now up at about 7,200ft on a beautiful lake called Sangrita Lake. And I’m going to work eventually, hopefully with an architect,
[01:41:33] Skylab architecture, Jeff Covell.
[01:41:36] We’re going to build a very, very bougie, high end,
[01:41:40] European refugio style lodge up in the Alpine.
[01:41:45] I’ve partnered with the North Face now with the brands, and I think the North Face is going to get involved with it and we’re going to do a pretty rad bald face 2.0, but it’s going to be much less timber framey because everything has to be held in or driven up in the winter.
[01:42:01] So this is going to be much more steel, concrete,
[01:42:05] you know, mixed on site,
[01:42:07] backcountry lodge style.
[01:42:09] And it’s going to going to be pretty incredible. If you’re a snowboarder or you care to see a guy named Torstein Horgmo.
[01:42:17] He’s one of my favorite snowboarders. Top guy. We built some jumps for him last year and he filmed a project called Return that you could see on YouTube. And that is the location where we’re going to be building the lodge where we built those jumps.
[01:42:30] Kevin Choquette: I should have brought this up earlier, but I gotta jump on it now that you’re bringing it up.
[01:42:35] I don’t have a lot of heli experience.
[01:42:38] I’ve skied a lot I snowboarded for a short period of time, and back then,
[01:42:43] my feet were too big, so I’d always have heel and toe slides, drag, and it was just ridiculous. So I stopped.
[01:42:49] But the Rubies is one place I’ve gone a few times. And you fly up in there, and it’s freaking insane, and the terrain is mental.
[01:42:59] And then they put you on, like, the.
[01:43:01] And I love those guys, so they hear this lot of respect for them and their family operation. But they put you in the valley floor and, you know, it’s. It’s super fun.
[01:43:10] The snow quality is great. And they also have, you know,
[01:43:14] intercontinental snowpack. So it’s a little sketch. And I get the snow safety. I’ve always come home. So, hey, props to them. They have. They’ve got a great safety record.
[01:43:24] And my first trip up to you guys, I got a day because Covid shut us down. And you had to run everybody out. Thanks to the prime minister.
[01:43:31] And then last year was the only. The second time I’ve been.
[01:43:34] And I,
[01:43:35] you know, kind of is just like, yeah, it’s just skiing. Like, I’ll be fine. We were a little earlier in the year, I think it was January, and Walrus was our guide, and this stuff they put us on, I was like, wait.
[01:43:45] Like,
[01:43:46] this is, like,
[01:43:48] way bigger than I anticipated. And I think for the guys that have gone for years and years, because I know that’s kind of how it goes. Like, I got to be, you know, the 12th slot on a cat that’s been running the same week for years.
[01:44:00] And everybody kind of knows the place, and clearly the guides do.
[01:44:05] I can’t be the only person that has said this to you, but I was surprised at the magnitude of some of the stuff that we were put on. Just like, no, this is the line, and,
[01:44:18] oh, really like it. I ski Kirkwood, and I would say it’s like the A lines at Kirkwood that I generally would avoid is kind of where we were being put.
[01:44:27] Like, no, this is the line. And it was all great and it was all super skiable. But I was, like, kind of surprised. I wonder how you guys think about it.
[01:44:34] I mean, look, net. Net a huge win. I was super stoked. It was way more challenging than I thought, and. And it was fully approachable, but it just put me in a place that was at a amplitude that I didn’t anticipate.
[01:44:47] How do you guys think about that?
[01:44:49] The experience and the terrain and, like, where you put people?
[01:44:55] Jeff Pensiero: I don’t think about it, actually. All that. All that Much. We,
[01:45:00] I mean, listen,
[01:45:02] I am an entrepreneur in the hospitality space and I am touchy feely in that way.
[01:45:09] And I made a conscious decision to not continue and complete my guiding tickets.
[01:45:15] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:45:17] Jeff Pensiero: That guy, the walrus, started as the first dishwasher at the lodge.
[01:45:22] Kevin Choquette: Awesome.
[01:45:22] Jeff Pensiero: And he is a wonderful soul. And he’s been with us literally since day one with the lodge.
[01:45:28] And I’ve watched him evolve into a tail gunner. And he was a tail gunner for so long that we were finally like, dude, you have to go get your ticket.
[01:45:35] Right.
[01:45:36] And he’s a carpenter. He’s built half of the things that you see up there.
[01:45:40] And he’s held every one of my kids the day they were born. And he’s one of many that are like that up there.
[01:45:47] And that guy literally knows what’s behind every tree in that 32,000 acres.
[01:45:53] Kevin Choquette: That’s right.
[01:45:54] Jeff Pensiero: And if Mark says, I’m taking these guys on this line,
[01:45:59] I have zero hesitation that it’s the right call at the right time at the right place. I don’t play that game with the guides.
[01:46:06] They train extensively.
[01:46:09] Luckily. One of the things, that bald face that, that I think makes us a bit unique is the guides don’t work anywhere else.
[01:46:15] They work seven days of bald phase. They go down for seven days. They come up for seven days.
[01:46:19] Couple of them will go work at Valhalla here and there because I’m trying to integrate some cultural features. And walrus is one of them, Brad’s another one of them,
[01:46:26] Joel’s another one of them. And so those guys,
[01:46:30] their head is so in the snowpack and they know if there’s a little warm cell that comes through and leaves a little zipper crust on the southwest in the afternoon and then it snows 20cm on it, they know they’re not showing up to any surprises up there.
[01:46:46] They’ve done such a good job of communicating the way. There’s a guide meeting in the morning, guide meeting in the afternoon. There’s non verbal communication in the guide room. They go have beers with each other in town when they’re not on shift.
[01:46:58] And if you’ve ever hung out with guides,
[01:47:01] it’s super annoying because all they do is talk about the snow.
[01:47:04] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:47:05] Jeff Pensiero: You know what I mean? And in such epic detail. And I love them for it. But as far as like what terrain you’re getting on and is it too gnarly or is it not gnarly or whatever, like, hey, man, I’m going to make sure the soup’s good.
[01:47:18] I’m going to make sure you got great sheets on your bed. I’m going to make sure those guides have every tool they need to do their job.
[01:47:24] But far be it from me to start telling guides how to do their job. And I think.
[01:47:28] Kevin Choquette: And look at the end of it, that was my experience and I realized it with the all the other crew, they knew that they could trust the guide. For me it was just like on the first go I was like, oh really?
[01:47:40] Jeff Pensiero: Like that’s where we’re going. Hell yeah.
[01:47:42] Kevin Choquette: And look, it’s a compliment. It was, it was fantastic.
[01:47:45] Jeff Pensiero: It was great. I love the train over there. That’s hats off to Craig, Kelly and Buff because they saw it it and it is just gnarly enough without being too gnarly.
[01:47:55] Now you go over to Valhalla and hopefully you do and it’s the next step up.
[01:48:00] Kevin Choquette: Yeah.
[01:48:00] Jeff Pensiero: Valhalla has a bunch of spots that are like, oh no go. You can’t go there.
[01:48:04] Bald Face has a self regulation to it that is literally amazing that we don’t glade any of those trees.
[01:48:12] Like it is perfect from the top to the bottom. It’s very steep, but not too steep.
[01:48:18] There’s no flats that snowboarders can’t get across. It is like an ins. Bald Face is an anomaly. It’s incredible for that.
[01:48:26] But Valhalla goes to the next level and the guides of Valhalla have to have another level to them as far as like there’s whole zones over there that are crazy dangerous.
[01:48:38] So we’re glading over there to open up more terrain that’s like Bald Face. We’re doing more cat roads to access mellower terrain over over there.
[01:48:45] And then when it’s game on over there, we will literally scare you out of your boots. Safely. Safely.
[01:48:52] And that’s why they’ll be nice little, little partner operations, you know. And then when we do open that lodge, I think it is going to suck some of the guests away from Bald Face and make some much needed availability over there as people discover how rad V is because a lot of people just don’t want to do the drive and the day in and out.
[01:49:08] It’s a long day at Valhalla, right? Right now.
[01:49:11] Kevin Choquette: Yeah, I’m sure,
[01:49:13] Jeff, you’ve been super generous with your time. Any message you want to send to the, the entrepreneurs out there, whether it’s the 52 or 56 year old who’s, you know, beaten up at the moment or the 26 year old version of yourself who’s thinking of it’s, like this going full send.
[01:49:28] Jeff Pensiero: You got listen. Like, if you think of ski touring or mountain biking uphill as a. As a metaphor,
[01:49:35] I mean,
[01:49:36] just because you’re tired and the sun’s starting to get low in the horizon and you’re supposed to be home for this thing,
[01:49:44] it’s always worth it to top out.
[01:49:47] Like, don’t stop, because you might just be four steps away from topping out.
[01:49:52] Don’t let the world drag you back into the valley till you reach your goal, because it’s worth it. It’s totally worth it.
[01:50:00] And that extra little grind is what makes us a special breed,
[01:50:04] you know? Don’t quit. What did I tell you’re not. You’re not dead till you’re dead.
[01:50:12] Don’t be afraid of dying.
[01:50:14] Go ahead and die,
[01:50:15] but don’t quit because you’re afraid of dying. You know what I mean?
[01:50:19] Like, I was like, I’m not quitting until a lawyer or a judge tells me I have to quit. I’m not quitting because I’m scared.
[01:50:28] I’m quitting because a judge is like, you’re gonna go to jail if you keep doing this, you know,
[01:50:34] Because a lawyer’s like, a judge is gonna tell you this is illegal. But I’m not quitting until somebody else tells me I have to quit.
[01:50:43] Kevin Choquette: Yeah. Right on, man.
[01:50:44] Jeff Pensiero: Yeah, Jeff.
[01:50:46] Kevin Choquette: Thank you for the time, listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Do your subscribe or. Or review.
[01:50:52] My guys always tell me to do that.
[01:50:54] And yeah, Jeff, thanks again. I appreciate all the time and all the insights. Great stuff.
[01:50:59] Jeff Pensiero: Totally appreciate the opportunity. Keep up the good work. See you this winter.
[01:51:03] Kevin Choquette: Yeah, for sure.
